Anyone else questioning the extent of "social isolation"?

I don’t think you can really use China as a reference for how to control the spread of corona, considering the fact that it was the government’s lies that allowed it to fester in Wuhan and eventually spread worldwide. When they say that there haven’t been any new cases, you know it’s probably a lie: the CCP is feeling the heat and their propaganda efforts are intended to wipe everyone’s memory clear of Wuhan and to fixate on how bad their home-cooked crisis is for everyone outside of China. I don’t trust a fucking thing that comes out of China.

South Korea is the model. They are the standard that everyone else has to live up to, and unlike China, which barbarically left some people to die in the streets, tyranically imposed martial law, threatened to throw doctors and their families in jail merely for telling people that there was a serious health crisis…South Korea did everything with transparency. When South Korea says that their number of new infections is going down, believe that.

As for the American response, much has already been said about the lack of testing and the efforts at social distancing - we’re catching up slowly but surely in that regard. But there is still an inexcusable amount of misinformation about the disease. All I keep seeing is “Wash your hands! And stay six feet apart.”

No, you don’t get it, but read this and read this carefully because it might just save your life: all the evidence points to the primary mode of transmission being through the air, not by touching doorknobs and failing to wash hands. Don’t get me wrong, you can get it by touching infected surfaces. And you do need to wash your hands. But the thing you absolutely must remember about this virus is that it stays airborne, and that’s how it is typically transmitted. ANd it can stay airborne a lot longer than people realize. If you’re in a room, or even in a hallway, and someone coughs, those droplets can stay in the air for 10-30 minutes, and in some cases, they can remain airborne for hours.

Don’t think you can just go on shopping, walking, jogging, living your normal life and then come home and wash it away. You will DIE if you believe that.

Come on now. This thing is bad, but the melodrama is not necessary.

How so? I thought we moved faster than Italy by like a week.

The reason I separated it out was because there’s the set of people with coronavirus who WOULD survive, with adequate medical care. That’s Group 2.

Then Group 4 was the set of people who have OTHER conditions who would survive with adequate medical care. The people who say… a month ago, would have been treated without any capacity issue questions.

So the goal is to flatten the curve as much as we can, even if we can’t totally flatten it. Even if we drop it only a little bit and 5% more people could be treated than otherwise, on a national scale that translates into a non-trivial number of lives saved.

The success Asian countries have had in flattening the curve shows that social distancing does work, it just needs to be strictly followed.

We are doing that, but it is looking increasingly likely that the virus spreads through the air, and lingers in the air for anywhere from a half hour to three hours. So a narrow hallway to outside, with no ventilation, is going to collect a lot of people’s exhalations in an apartment building with hundreds of residents and only two exits (other than for the ground floor residents, who can just walk out their sliding glass doors, whereas for us on higher floors those go to a balcony).

THIS.

Did you have (or need) any particular assumptions about the ratio of actual cases to official cases in those models? Scott Alexander at slatestarcodex reviewed a number of different estimates in the 5x to 20x range of ratios and at some point it’s going to make a big difference to in the infection rate.

Yah… I knew why you were splitting it out and trying to create a group 4. I consider those part of group 2, but call it group 2a if you want. In the end, as a result of this wave we are staring at, there will be a WHOLE bunch of people who will need medical care to survive who aren’t going to get it. Whether that be because of COVID-19 or something else, they are going to die. 5% of a huge number is significant and hopefully we can get it that high.

I truly hope we are able to save huge numbers that otherwise would died had we not done all these things to flatten the curve. I just hope in the long run, months or years from now, this saves more than it kills.

To help other English majors like myself understand Stranger’s excellent post(s):

More at the link.

If you think it’s melodrama, then carry on. You’ll end up in an ICU pretty soon.

Another thing people ought to be aware of is that the currently reported number of cases 25,000-ish…is way, way, low. We’re still catching up, and these numbers mostly reflect the past. The real number of infected is already in the hundreds of thousands. COVID-19 is much, much closer to you than you realize.

Let’s put numbers into perspective.

For the average person, the death rate is about 1 in 100. The problematic word here, though, is “average.” The average death rate for someone who is in their 20s and in good health is quite low - perhaps as low or even lower than for seasonal flu (the data are not completely in). But that “average” number gets worse as you age, and as you collect conditions over the course of your life. If you’re over the age of 70 or 75, there’s a good chance you have decreased immunity, decreased liver function, and increased high blood pressure. Consequently, the “average” fatality rate for such patients is more like 1 in 10.

But another problem that doesn’t get talked about nearly enough is that this is a devastating and rough affliction even if you don’t die. You could live, but end up in the ICU and in a hospital bed for weeks - do you have that kind of money? I don’t. Most people I know would have their savings and retirement significantly depleted by this illness. Don’t expect to just stay home and fight it off with orange juice. You could have severe lung tissue scarring, and consequently, permanent lung injury. How’d you like to walk around leashed to an oxygen machine?

There’s no melodrama here. There will be many, many people of all ages who will live, but they will require immediate emergency hospitalization -that’s quite different from seasonal flu, which the health system already takes into account and prepares for. COVID-19 was unexpected. It’s extra. It throws everything out of balance. That’s exactly why healthcare workers in major cities are sounding the alarm about running out of beds and equipment.

nevermind

Telling all of us that we’re gonna die if we contract COVID-19 is blatantly wrong. And telling me that I’m gonna end up in the ICU for believing as much is blatantly stupid.

You can make your point without relying on wrongness and stupidity. It detracts from your otherwise cogent arguments.

I think I’ll go look in the mirror - and hold up Stranger’s avatar in front of my face.

A truly awesome post, Stranger.

Okay, you MAY die.

Is that better? Does that make you sleep easier at night?

We are waaaay too relaxed about this contagion, and I’m seeing a lot of feel-good bullshit on TV, which unfortunately is being reinforced by the highest levels of government.

Hand washing is good, but there’s hardly any emphasis at all on how the virus is most likely to infect people, and the fact is, the data show, that you are much more likely to get it through respiratory droplets than by touching a doorknob and rubbing your eyes. As I said, you absolutely should wash your hands, but my point is that people aren’t social distancing nearly enough because the wrong kind of information - or maybe not enough of the right kind of information - is getting out.

People are hearing “social distancing” and stay 3-6 feet apart. But unless they really hear more information about the actual mode of transmission, this will mean nothing to them. The virus is airborne through millions of droplets that you cannot see, droplets that will circulate up, down, sideways, and all around, riding air currents for seconds, minutes, or hours. If you come into contact with those droplets, you’re in trouble.

Here are some qualifications on that:

Not meant to make people complacent, so read the entire article to be as well-informed as possible *right now. *This has NOT been thoroughly studied yet-- too new, but it looks like this virus does not travel far or spread through a whole room and hang there for days.

Another cite:

IOW you probably don’t need to worry about breathing the air in a room half an hour after a COVID-infected person has left. The SURFACES-- yes, those might still have the virus on them. Hand-washing! No face-touching!

It’s better to take more precautions than you think necessary until we (as a population) know more. But still keep our wits about us as much as possible.

Bro, just because I’m not screaming on the internets “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!” doesn’t mean I’m relaxed about this. I’ve been on edge about this thing for the past 3-4 weeks. I’ve been fighting feel-good bullshit on the SDMB for that entire duration. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to let unnecessarily doom-and-gloom shit slide either. Yes, we are truly fucked right now, and a lot of people will end up in the ICU and die. But a lot of the ones who do will be folks who followed the CDC recommendations as best as they could.

You are setting up the groundwork for blaming people for their own victimization. If I get sick and end up in the ICU, it won’t be my fault because I haven’t broken any of the “rules” or best practices. If I do get sick, it certainly won’t be because I disagreed with a faceless entity on the internet.

I’m not gonna tell you to calm the fuck down because I hate when people say that to me. But like I said, you don’t have to give incorrect information to make your point. It detracts away from what you’re saying when you do this.

The virus doesn’t hang in the air for days, but it can hang in the air for minutes and hours. If you’re in a very large, spacious, well-ventilated room with one or two other people, the risk of infection is low.

But let’s consider a more realistic scenario: “small” gatherings of people over for a small dinner or cocktail gathering, or maybe three or four people riding in an apartment complex elevator or in a community laundry room. Nobody’s showing visible signs of infection. One of the people standing close by is infected - not showing visible signs of infection but breathing through the mouth or talking. The longer you’re even within 3-6 feet of that person, the more likely you are to get infected. You can get infected by breathing in the air of an infected jogger who exhales as you inhale while passing you on the sidewalk.

Obviously the greatest risk is to healthcare workers in a healthcare setting because they’re working in an enclosed environment and working with equipment that COVID-19 more easily aerosolized, but it’s wrong to assume that it requires a cough or a sneeze to infect. That’s a potentially fatal assumption to make.

It is true that some research has shown that this virus can be truly airborne – not just spread via large droplets from a cough or sneeze, and can hang in the air for hours as an aerosol. So, no, hand washing and staying 6 feet away won’t necessarily cover it. That is a big part, I think, of why the shelter in place orders have been happening. It isn’t enough to just do those things. You also have to stay out of space that others have recently occupied. There is other evidence though, to suggest that it is not primarily being spread by aerosols – it doesn’t probably become highly aerosolized that easily.

No one should be getting blamed for catching it unless they actively set out to do so, in my opinion. There is misinformation coming from the President and entire “news” networks – even the CDC in some limited instances*. In addition, people are generally terrible at understanding risk, lots of people don’t understand the details of this risk, and lots of people still have to worry about who’s watching their kids and how they are going to get enough food to eat, so they don’t have time or mental bandwidth to read up on the latest research. People will get it who took all reasonable precautions, and people will get it who did not follow recommendations,. And some who don’t follow recommendations won’t get it. This is a time for thinking and acting collectively, not individually. I’m being as cautious as I reasonably can, because I’m able to, and that helps the people who can’t.

I can’t sew, but I can hot glue. You think nurses and doctors will take hot glued masks?

I want to do something to help this horrible situation.

They likely will pass them on to visitors, not use them themselves.

Put kitteh to work. :cool:

Relief agencies need donations of money and blood. Food delivery drivers are needed. See this Marketwatch piece 6 ways to help others during the coronavirus outbreak — ‘Everyone is a responder in this crisis’

I hope not.

There will be days when the U.S. caseload is growing greater than any other country, and days when it isn’t.

Also, different places in Italy, and in the U.S. will have different experiences.

Now, if we are lucky, American health care leaders have learned from the Northern Italy situation what not to do. I’m not totally confident this is happening.

One lesson is to designate health care facilities as either for infectious and non-infectious cases, to reduce sick people in the hospital, for something else, from catching it. In 1918-19, at least that was done. Has anyone heard of it yet in the U.S.?

I have heard of an infectious hospital wing. I’m not sure if that is isolation enough.

Also, there need to be infectious and non-infectious ambulances. Is that being done?

Re social distancing, I feel my family is doing it. Seeing the grandkids on screens only :mad: