:smack:
I meant the apology sentiments seem disingenuous. I’m in agreement with your views.
Askia will be along in a minute to suggest you, liberal and I get a room.
You’re being naive in your characterization and I wonder if you’re being disingenuous. Acknowledging a grevious wrong done by your organization to a downtrodden people is soooooo not the time to make a “feel good statement.”
I think we’re just two ships passing in the night. I’m just going to bow out of this thread because I don’t really think I have anything more to offer.
Marc
MGibson. You left me with a lot to think about and I thank you sincerely for the back and forth. I don’t know if anything really got resolved or not but was certainly inneressing. Hope to see you elsewhere on the boards on the same side of a different topic.
Good to see the debate continuing but still folks are speaking past each other. However, you with the face’s point is so incredible it is worth repeating:
I don’t quite agree with this in its entirety - this has a lot to do with White people and Whiteness as a concept, in my opinion - but the very fact that we’ve observed people move from a discussion of a corporate decision to their own lineage and lack of responsibility, dismiss the rather eloquent posts that speak of how such an apology is beneficial for at least some people, and make presumptive statements about how a one page memo will lead to legal imbroglios and divisiveness smacks of racial privilege. Some of y’all must work at movie theatres, because you sure can project…
We’ve had thousands of properly cast votes by African Americans discarded and not counted in the past two presidential elections. In fact, in 2000, we couldn’t even declare a winner until several lawsuits were settled. Guess what? Life went on in these United States. There wasn’t civil unrest. There was a lot of hope in the legal processes, a strong suspicion that this event was simply indicative of yet another slap in the face to African Americans, and a ton of apathy. Might I suggest the only people who were surprised that the lawsuits ended up the way they did were some White folks? When you know about grandfather clauses, literacy tests, and the various impediments to voting that African Americans have experienced, hanging chads aren’t a huge shock.
Maybe these fears of rampant lawsuits are what some White Americans might choose to do if the situation were reversed? The idea that African Americans are poised and rarin’ to start a revolution, legal or otherwise, is a bit of a stretch.
Dammit, I’m a taxpayer, as are the eighteen-year-old-plus members of my African American family. (Hell, I even filed a 1040 when I was sixteen.) The money in the federal coffers comes from my pocket as well. I pay Social Security - no choice or option in the matter - for other people, and it’s money I’m never going to personally benefit from. Do I care? Am I pissed at 65-year-olds and people on disability people as a result? Well, no. Life goes on and I have much more important things to worry about. I like to think of it as reparations for the Greatest Generation…
“Some of y’all must work at movie theatres, because you sure can project…”
BWAH HA HA HA HAHA!
Contrapunctual… the words “emotional” and “unstable” are yours, not mine. If you’ll review the thread I posted exact quotes from posters that spoke to the meaninglessness of the apology. Pick a page, any page for examples of posters asserting that they won’t be forced into an apology, etc. Seriously, review the thread.
I might agree with your term “emotional” in some regard, though.
Quote from Contrapunctual:
Sure they’re not the same thing but they are very closely related. If I drown in your pool, or even crash through your skylight in an attempted robbery, there are civil precedents that say I can find you responsible. If you have a pit bull that gnaws my face off, guess what? You, the owner, are responsible. Need I go on? In what context can one own something, but not be responsible for it?
(opens window to check and see if car is still where it was parked last night, lest it assume a Christine-like personality and take me to the cleaners)
(slight hijack, but related, methinks)
I’m just a little worried by the lack of apologies, though. I strongly suspect that one of the reasons Japan still hasn’t officially apologized for its inhumane treatment of people in WWII is that they’re waiting for the individuals affected to kick the bucket so they don’t have to pay reparations.
Oh, and by the way, I’m still waiting for an apology on the treatment of the innumerable Chinese that built the railroads of the West. 
If you read my next post, you will see that I already explained this. Read more carefully next time.
I think this is true to a large extent and represents one of the main problems with Americans. We know the right thing to do, but we don’t do it because we are afraid it might give someone else some evidence or leverage to use against us. Whether it’s a car accident or a company selling a harmful product, nobody ever issues the apologize they know they should. I was reading a study the other day about medical malpractice litigation. The study spoke about how many lawsuits could have been prevented if the doctors had issued and heartfelt apology to the victims and tried their best to change the environment so that similar mistakes wouldn’t happen in the future. Instead, they don’t fix the problems, and don’t apologize for fear that it may embolden their victims. This shit has to stop. Nobody benefits when people don’t feel compelled to do the right thing. This whole argument that people shouldn’t apologize because somebody might sue them is ridiculous. Nobody ever stops and thinks that that may be the just outcome. Even if it isn’t, taking responsibility for your own actions is more important than avoiding some undesired consequence.
Repaying a debt owed to someone is a bad idea? Is civil litigation a bad idea? What about paying restitution in a criminal case? I love how magnanimous you are being to the people who have suffered. Why can’t people understand that these groups had to be tortured, raped, beaten, robbed, and dehumanized so that we could learn a lesson. Only problem is that people have not learned this lesson, and probably never will. Sure we may not enslave entire groups of people, but it doesn’t mean we see them as equals. You act as if the action is root of the problem. The mentality is the problem, and that has not changed much.
So we shouldn’t give out money because it might be spent improperly? You do realize that not all people who advocate reparations argue that individual checks should be handed out. Many suggest that money should be applied to schools in black areas to improve educational opportunities, or providing no-interest loans to black businesses. The fact that such a complex issue can be boiled down to, “those blacks just want some money” is absurd.
Your “teach a man to fish” analogy is flawed. Many blacks know how to fish, they just don’t have the equipment. If you gave them a check for a considerable amount of money, it would change their lives.
Why do these communities lack the educational opportunities other communities have?
Are you really defending police officers who treat blacks poorly solely because they are black? How about asking those cops, who volunteered to take a job where they would be exposed to the worst in “black culture”, (which is a ridiculous statement anyway) to quit if they can’t be fair and objective.
There are some many white officers because police department have been a good ol’ boys club for years and years. Not all cops need college degrees, and even the police forces that require them have only done so fairly recently. You might have a point if there was a time before educational requirements when police squads were full of black people. However, we both know that was never the case.
Listen, you clearly know very little about the reparations movement. I know you just thought you had an epiphany about how this intractable situation could be resolved, but rest assured you have not.
Why because too many white people will complain?
Thanks.
Yeah, that’s what I was driving at. If a company feels they should make an apology, then they should, hollow or not, but as far as being forced to do so, that’s where I draw the line.
Say what? I need some clarification here. Fines as reparations I don’t agree completely with, but I get. Compensation packages as reparations? You can’t mean that a paycheck is a form of reparations? Or can you? The logical extension of responsiblity only goes as far as the proof of the wrongdoing. You can prove that an employer screwed its’ employees. You can prove that a company screwed an individual, and you can prove that a company broke the law. The problem is, that companies back THEN were engaged in LEGAL, albeit immoral, practices, hence, you cannot apply that theory to the companies now, since they did nothing against any laws then, they feel rightly bad about what the company they’re now runnind was involved in, and want to make it right, if only on paper.
You don’t buy that time is a factor, but it is. First, if you apply a couple of basic legal theories to the whole process, you get a couple of things to consider.
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There is a statute of limitations on everything but murder, but slavery was legal then, so, no crime was committed. Hence, the time to address reparations was within a reasonable amount of time after the law changed, not several hundred years later.
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The fruit of the poisonous tree. Despite the fact that slavery was legal here, if anyone should pay for the immoral things that were done, it should be the peddler, as much if not more than the buyer. In modern jurisprudence (at least in the US) the idea is not as much to get the buyer, as it is to get the seller, no matter what it is. Big tobacco, gun dealers and drug peddlers are perfect examples. Not, of course to reduce human suffering to an illegal product, or a product at all, it’s just an example of a theory.
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Well— a big debate is the reparations movement is idea that reparations wouldn’t necessarily be directly monetary, and that tax breaks, education and some other training tools are some suggestions as to how it might be better spent. Much of racist attitudes are from a lack of proper education – but some people will reject “proper education” no matter what you do.
Agreed, though if it weren’t for the twits in this world, I’d be out of a job, so SOME stupidity is ok. 
Seriously, I don’t even think it’s a matter for debate. Taking cash directly from one, to give to the other will in no way, shape, fashion or form create racial harmony. IMO, it will create the 1950’s style hatred all over again, without any of the lessons to be learned. You want to create a divide between the people, mess with their money.
Oh yeah, I feel you on that one. Those dull-witted, inbred malcontents should pay, thankfully, they’re mostly Personas Non Grata at this point.
Thanks, brickbacon. I hadn’t noticed buttonjockey’s post.
Worse. Post. Ever.
If I bang a million dents in your car, I expect you not to take me to court. Why? Because the best way to pay you back is to promise that I’ll never do it again. And OF COURSE, you should always trust the word of someone who just took a bat to your car. Of course, you should.
If someone rapes and kills a family member, don’t demand from them an apology. Why? Because it will be empty and meaningless. And your family member was raped and killed to teach all of us a lesson anyway. Stop shedding tears…just sit there and learn your lessons.
Dammit, dude. The interned Japanese didn’t deserve reparations? People who were actually incarcerated for years and deprived of a likelihood and pursuit of happiness don’t deserve anything? WTF? Does that make any sense to you?
What about the folks harmed by the Holocaust? Were their reparations undeserved too? You left them out of your list for a reason, right? Is it just Americans who don’t deserve reparations, or is it all victims of oppression? What valuable lessons do we learn when 6 million people are slaughtered? Tell me now.
We keep getting these “lessons” and yet we learn nothing because they keep happening over and over. Meanwhile, the victims are supposed to be satisfied with the lessons they’ve taught us as the oppressors can keep winning. And winning. And winning. If the lessons aren’t teaching us anything, then what does that tell us about their compensatory value?
The more I post in this thread, the more I start thinking that reparations aren’t such a bad idea after all. Really, if this is the best the opposition can come up with, then we have nothing to lose.
But if your grandfather dented my grandfather’s car, do you suggest that I sue you?
No, repaying a debt is a good idea. In fact, it’s the only right thing to do, but the idea that money equals justice is too flawed to even properly argue. We don’t enslave entire races anymore, and if that’s not one HELL of a lesson, I don’t know what is.
And never once did I say that “those blacks just want some money” perhaps you should read MY posts more carefully. I called for opportunities and education, not checks.
Talk in circles much? First you say “it’s not about the money” then you say “money would be really neat” Which is it?
Because they have no education to get the jobs, to make the money to change things. It’s called oppression, perhaps you’ve heard of it.
Good lord no, and it’s offensive to even ask that, which you would know if you knew what I did for a living and who I did it with. Is it a ridiculous statement? My friend, you know not of what you speak. I see it, day in and day out, it’s a fact of life, if you agree or not. Sure, cops should be fair and objective, and many of us are, but the fact is that we deal with the worst of the worst of society in general, and the black culture, because of years of educational and econmic oppression, there are more blacks in jail than any other racial group. C’mon, this is common sense
And it’s true, not all cops need degrees, but I’m going on current information (within the last decade or so).
Listen, I know what I know, and what I know is, it’s better to fix the problem, than a symptom of it.
Yes. That’s the reason. :rolleyes:
Actually, I don’t think slavery was legal even back then. Slavery went against everything the Constitution stood for. That it took decades for people to realize this does not mean that the error was in the law. Rather, it was in people’s interpretation of it.
The second sentence does not follow from the first. If slavery was legal when it was practiced, and only illegal actions can be addressed with reparations (according to your understanding), then there would have been no time when reparations would have been appropriate.
I also disagree that legality matters. It was legal for German companies to employ concentration camp labor. It was legal for the Nazis to slaughter all those Jews. Why was it legal? Because the anti-semites wrote and enforced all the laws. And yet the surviving Jews of the Holocaust received reparations, and all those good Nazi soldiers were punished.
This does not make sense. So American citizens should demand African governments that do not exist anymore to pony-up before their own goddamn country? A country that has always prided itself on its ideals of freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?
Let’s say the descendants of slaves actually do go after the African governments that participated in the slave trade. Does that mean that it’s then acceptable for them to sue the federal government for its involvement?
I’m more in support of instutitional grants and than individual pay-outs. But I admit I’m bothered by the “the money needs to be spent properly” kind of arguments. When the Japanese received reparations, where was the warning about money being ill-spent and wasted? Where was it for the Jews? It is patronizing for someone to cut you a check for compensation you are owed, but then attach rules for spending it. It is your money, if a court decides it is.
This is the most common argument I’ve heard against reparations, but fortunately it’s the easiest to shoot through. People claimed that abolition of slavery would create a divide between people and “mess with their money”. Later, they claimed that integration. And you know what? I’m sure that some people did become more racist after Emanicipation and after the Jim Crow laws were repelled. But it doesn’t matter. Justice is justice regardless of how the public feels about it. I’d rather get justice and have everyone sucking their teeth, then not get justice and STILL have everyone sucking their teeth.
[QUOTE=monstro]
Thanks, brickbacon. I hadn’t noticed buttonjockey’s post.
Worse. Post. Ever.
Yes, I should take you to court. My grandchildren, however, have no business taking your grandchildren to court. I’m sure you’re not comparing slaves to cars, so I won’t insinuate that
This is larger than that, and you damn well know it. You’re being unnecessarily inflammatory
**Guess what, nothing ILLEGAL was done to the Japanese, Germans and Italians. Immoral? Youbetcha, but not illegal at the time. If we’re to pay for every immoral thing the US has ever done, we’d be broke.
In 1948 In Oyama v. California, the Supreme Court struck down the Alien Land Laws as violations of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Evacuation Claims Act authorized payment to Japanese Americans who suffered economic loss during imprisonment: with the necessary proof, 10 cents was returned for every $1.00 lost. It wasn’t fair payback, but it WAS payback.**
I’m addressing wrongs done by the US. We helped fix THAT problem, if you recall. And if you don’t know what lessons we can learn by the slaughter of six million jews, then there’s nothing I can help you with
If I’m still alive and you still have his car, yes.
Notice that buttonjockey308 had the Japanese in his list of the “undeserved”. All the people who received reparations in 1992 were direct victims.
Do you agree with him, Liberal?
Oops, Liberal. I misread your post. Of course, you shouldn’t sue me. I did nothing to hurt you.
Nothing I’ve posted on this thread should give you the idea that I would think differently.
buttonjockey308. You know we seem to agree, more on less, on three out of four issues, so maybe we’re not so far apart on this as it seemed? I’m happy to clarify. You seem to get, but don’t completely agree with, “fines as reparations” so I won’t get into that. When I said “compensation packages are reparations” I meant punitive damages and maybe even severance packages are compensation packages for stuff like corporate discrimination cases or out of court settlements for other criminal actions. Ordinary hourly wages and salaries do not apply IMO, but maybe college scholarships or internships to inner city youths might.
I said, I don’t buy that time is a factor because many legal scholars are framing reparations arguments with the POV that the entire enterprise of chattel slavery across the Atlantic was a crime against humanity – there is no time limitation under current international law. The subsequent racism that permeates American society as a direct outgrowth of slavery may be the ongoing condition that proves the problems caused by slavery still exists.
The other obstacles you noted are being anticipated and discussed, Try here.
“If we’re to pay for every immoral thing the US has ever done, we’d be broke.”
Oh yes. But when the revolution comes, you wanna be on the side of the righteous, don’t you?
Find me an instance–a single one–where the descendant of a slave has brought suit against the descendant of a slave owner. If all this time you have been arguing against grandchildren taking other grandchildren to court because of their grandfather’s actions, then you’ve been arguing a strawman.
You said a damn inflammatory statement. Do you care to see it again?
Emphasis mine.
If what you said above applies to wronged groups (e.g., the interned Japanese, the displaced Indians, and the enslaved black Americans), why can’t one take it to the level of individuals. Do you not understand how horrible this argument sounds? Do you realize how awful it sounds to someone like myself, a person who belongs in the first generation of her family born into first-class citizenship? Do you care how you sound?
Lemme get this straight. All the government has to do is write a law codefying immoral activities, and it’s off scott-free?
If all a government has to do is codefy shit in the lawbooks to get away with shit, what kind of redress do the people have? A vote? Ha! It’s codefied into the law that you can’t vote. Use money to influence other’s votes? Ha! It’s codefied into the law that you can’t make money. And it’s codefied into law that you can’t mingle with others. Run away? Where you gonna run away, babe? It’s codefied into law that you can’t run away. It’s codefied into law that you can’t even learn to read, so how you gonna read the law? It’s codefied into law that you can’t sue. You can’t even look like you’re about to sue…that’s codefied into the law as well. Ha.
Your only chance? Your children. You pray that when your children are born, the laws will be changed and your children can get the redress you weren’t able to get. But lawd-a-mercy, looka here. Your children can’t sue the government for screwing you over 'cuz what they did was legal at the time, you see. The government ain’t even gon say it’s sorry, 'cuz then the government would be admitting that it did something wrong. Do you think it’s going to do that? Naw, man! It’s just going to say “It was socially and morally acceptable at the time. Hope you understand.”
What is the point of the judicial system if you can’t sue someone for jacking your shit up? What is the point of having a government based on the Constitution if people can just create all kinds of crazy-ass laws and literally get away with murder?
I ask you: Did the Jews deserve reparations? Why do they deserve reparations and the Japanese do not? Why do the Jews NOT deserve reparations, while other individuals harmed by other bad-behaving institutions do deserve them? What does one group being American and the other not have to do with a discussion about apologies and reparations?
I await your responses to my questions.