::cough:: Philemon ::cough::
There is also the incredible ego. There are billions and billions of planets. Black holes,Galaxies stars of all kinds and distances beyond our imagination. If you believe god set this in motion,explain why he would have an interest in us. A few critters on a spinning rock in the middle of endless time and space. Whats more god wants us on our knees praying to him. He wants us to convert people to a specific belief. Get real. Where do we get off thinking we could have an impact on something this huge and powerful. And what kind of thing would god be to destroy the planet. There is a large rock in space aiming for us. If we dont blow ourselves up ,this rock will kill everything. So stop being stupid and face that you are responsible for life life you lead. We can bring logic and reason to life. Or we can kill us all.
Gr. Dad. You need to get your own account.
I went to a Catholic school pretty much my entire life, all through college. My mother was the first person to push me from Christianity. She’d push to take me to mass every weekend, yet she’d also be slightly bigoted, cheat, and lie away from church. That, in addition to just being plain mean, made an organization that has this as a member leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Going to school with your occasional abusive nun and parents that felt they had to spread the word about what to think instead of how to think. I didn’t want to be a robot.
As I grew older, I cared less and less and equated god with Santa Claus. It made no sense to me, even when I sat down and tried to connect the dots.
One incident that broke the camel’s back? I don’t know if I can point to just one, but one that stands out was being at my best friend’s house. His family is supse Catholic. They’ve got a chapel added onto their house and they had water stored in their basement in eager preparation for the Three Days of Darkness. Anyways, their family was sitting in the living room, holding normal conversation. In the safety of the white suburbs, they could speak their mind. They spoke poorly about poor people, black people, and generally, anyone that wasn’t one of them. Hypocrisy doesn’t make me feel happy, that’s for damned sure. It especially doesn’t when you’re talking about how you want to lead by example, yet when the doors are closed, you’re the ones causing the problems.
Like Skald I’m a recovering Pentecostal. In the bible belt.
I’ve always had a healthy amount of skepticism but the ball sorta got rolling towards my eventual agnosticism when I was around 15. I went to sleep one
afternoon in my room and when I woke up no one else was home. My parents and siblings who were there before I went sleep were missing. I went from room to room for about 15 or 20 minutes hoping they would show up but there were no where to be seen. Immediately I though the Rapture had taken place and was left behind. I went outside the car was still in the driveway. After that I started think what I am gonna do now. How I am gonna survive the Tribulation. At this point I went back outside and saw my parents with my siblings walking back home. They decided to take a walk down the road without telling me. I didn’t tell them what happened. Looking back it’s kinda funny. After that happened, I didn’t get more afraid. I got kinda mad. Like I had been duped. Like trusting someone and finding out they had been lying all the time.
Anyways of course still attended church regularly and read the Bible often. The more I read the Bible the more I disbelieved. Couldn’t get past all the inconsistencies and contradictions. I bought Josh McDowell’s book about questions of the Bible but that didn’t it help. The answers he came up with were equivocating and hardly ever really answered the question posed.
In the end I decided if there was a supreme being it definitely wasn’t like the Judeo Christian one. That god seems to have a self esteem problem. Creating us to worship him and if we don’t do it good enough or often enough then he punishes us so we will believe and worship him more. I mean if we were created for a purpose. I don’t think it was to jump through hoops so god can feel better about him/her/itself.
Aside from meeting some of the most sadistic people in my life while at Catholic school, my conversion to utter disbelief came relatively recently. I had been fascinated with Scientology for awhile - how bat-shit crazy it is, how the worshipers are manipulative and and and…And then I went through Salt Lake City and did a tour of the Mormon temple and heard more about the beginnings of that church and said to myself “Hmmm…almost as bat-shit crazy as the Scientologists.” From there it was a connect-the-insanity-dots between religions, ultimately leading to an epiphany that having a tortured and stabbed man nailed to a couple of sticks as a sign of love & compassion is more fucked up than having an alien named Xenu as your deity. Then the molestation cover-ups and sex-scandals and ??? just sorta tipped the scales.
I have been reading about Buddhism, and while a good part of it surrounds myths that I don’t identify with, there is one part of Buddhism that seems to state “There are 2 ways to attain enlightenment and ??? within Buddhism - Believe in Buddha and/ OR be a good person.” So, if an atheist wants to hedge their bets, just be a good person, help those around you, forgive people when you can, etc. and all will be OK when you die. 
Also, I must link to my favorite site for looking up passages in the Bible:
http://www.thebricktestament.com/
-Tcat
That’s a great website. Not quite as studious as Bible Gateway but still very cool. THanks.
Today I dug out an old homemade tape from college - a recording of some friends singing worship songs, and damn if the feelings didn’t come back just like I used to feel them. And the wistfulness, because it’s gone. And the old questions that used to plague me, that were part of the reason I eventually walked away, such as:
If I go to church on Sunday and sing old classic hymns along with everybody, is it worship?
Is it worship if I don’t care in the least about what I’m singing?
Is it worship if I cannot claim the words of the songs pertain to me at all (ie, songs made from quotes from the apostle Paul, or from the Psalms, for instance, where the author is talking about HIS faith, but I cannot make those same statements myself?)
Is it worship if I sing along with songs, and feel…uh, uplifted…and I am not a Christian nor even pretend to be?
What is the purpose of singing the songs anyway, particularly if one feels nothing?
One of the myriad reasons I dropped out was because I realised I could not sing those songs and MEAN them (I mean modern worship songs, not hymns) and that hymns themselves were largely meaningless to me.
Biblical rules can be twisted to mean whatever you want. As I recall, some slaveowners used the Golden Rule to justify slavery, claiming that if they were black, they’d want to be a slave. The blacks who disagreed were just ungrateful, that’s all.
In spite of my sig, I’m not a hardcore atheist. I think maybe, just maybe, there could be a God. The problem is, the activities of his fan clubs turn me off. With the possible exception of Unitarian Universalists, most religions to me have too many rules to follow in order to avoid hell, and too few principles the individual is allowed to consider and decide for himself. Ultimately, what I mean is that there is too much emphasis on obedience and not enough emphasis on thinking things through.
Crap. I left off my sig.
No
What is it that makes you feel uplifted about singing hymns if you don’t find the lyrics meaningful?
I don’t see much purpose if one feels nothing. The purpose is to feel a sense of unity as children of God and to open our hearts and minds to the spirit. For me it’s feeling that we and God are here together to encourage we mortals to continue to continue on the spiritual path, and to help each other.
Then it’s not for you at this time. There’s more than a few hymn that do not appeal to me lyrically or melodically. Some of the contemporary songs I really like.
Try Chris Rice and Nichole Nordeman.
I am a believer and I agree with your statement here. Too many want and/or allow someone else to tell them what it all means and what to believe. I think I understand the role of organized religion and it is a mix of good and bad like many things. I think somewhere in the spiritual journey we realize that the journey is uniquely our own and we must decide what is meaningful to us regardless of the judgement of others. It is our right, duty, and destiny to make that call, and no one elses.
I have much more respect for religions that honor that.
I like Sam and his contribution to the discourse. I’d have to say this sounds a liitle like a lot of fundamentalist Christians I’ve heard. Odd
Excellent discussion and it comes at a strange time in my life. Sorry, this is long and conflicted and a part rant.
I grew up “unchurched” as they say–I am the youngest of 5 kids, and once we moved up to IL(I was 4 t the time), my Dad refused to give up his Sunday sleep in, and my Mom refused to get 5 kids dressed, ready and off to church. Such is the way that large decisions can be made…I was christened Episcopalian, though. My Dad was an acolyte as a boy, and my Mom had to go to church every Sunday (Presbyterian).
I grew up around Catholics and Jews and envied them their CCD woes, and their Bat Mitzvah celebrity. I talked to God in my bed, before sleep each noc. A relative gave me a small, brass angel (this was long before angels became such commercial commodities), and I silently designated it my guardian angel. I felt the need for such a thing–my parent’s marriage melted down in a horrid burning plastics sort of way–huge mess and a real stink. Hard to take a at age 9, but any way-
I suppose I could say that I was a seeker of sorts–I liked to think things through and I wanted answers to the Big Questions. (questions like why is there gravity and how does electricity work bored me-- I wanted to know Why there was Pain and could Someone know your inner thoughts etc). I listened to Powerline on WLS (AM) radio every Sunday noc at 10 pm, while waiting for sleep. It comforted me to know that God was out there, watching over me via my guardian angel.
I went to college, not knowing or caring much about the Bible, but revering it, because everyone else did. Such was the state of affairs until I took a religion course called Quest for Human Destiny. We read Siddhartha and Ecclesiastes, among other things. I was so excited–but I had no time to take any more classes or explore the matter further. I was on a nursing track in college, and already behind due to my taking some liberal arts classes, “just for me”.
Fast forward to wedding (had no idea how to pick the readings-I was one of the first in my group to marry; husband also unchurched–sort of–but I knew I liked some of the readings because of the power of the language). I have my first child.
Suddenly, husband and I look at one another and think–we are responsible for a person. We better join a church so that we can provide ALL the pieces of the ideal American home life to said infant. (our assumptions etc are topic for another thread).
So, we join a local, liberal, community church. It is a lovely one (we got married there as well), and I settle into some bible classes.
Hmm. Some of this was quite nice–liturgical music is fantastic: the language and the music is so uplifting and passionate. Hymns are a plus, as are cantatas and other musical offerings that I fall immediately in love with.
The scriptural readings are profound, too–I now see why some read the Bible for the sheer poetry of it.
I call this my honeymoon phase with religion.
Next I entered my Martha phase. As a stay at home mom, now with 2 kids, I not only have time to volunteer, I NEED to express myself in an adult setting. The church is happy, and so am I. I feel not only welcome, but appreciated. We are proud to sit in church on Sundays–yep, we even had the picket fence.
I take more Bible classes, but I also start reading on my own. I find in class that my “take” on things is not the same as others. I begin to recognize passages and feel like I know the parables etc. At NO time am I told to not question or to just take “it” on faith. My doubts are accepted. (there was one associate pastor that said that I could NOT tell my kids, “I dont’ know” in answer to their hard questions re faith. I disagreed with him then, and I still do today, but I digress). I feel embraced and a part of something larger. All is good, although I am already feeling the strain of too much “Martha-ing”.
Life has a way of happening to people, and I am no different. Several things occurred, too long and drab and awful to relate here. Suffice to say that I was no longer a pretty, blonde young mother with an earnest desire to fit in and a longing for God’s love. I was a -in the slang of my adolescence–a hurting unit. I needed support and a place to express my rage. I got some support, it’s true. (and I can’t say for certain if there was any place that could have adequately handled my rage–no worries, I got therapy). But here’s the thing: I felt no love from God. I felt a Silence so profound as to be malice. Footprints, my ass.
And, the church did not seem to appreciate my pulling out of my volunteer stuff. If I heard the phrase, “time, talent and treasure” once, I heard it a million times. We had no treasure then, (see “rage” above), some time, but no talent. I was completely burnt out, between nursing(being a nurse), small kids, a tremendously rocky marriage and other strays bits of hell. I had nothing to give the church. The church was displeased (I still think this today) and showed it by ignoring me. There were no more phone calls to me asking how I was doing-although there had been when I was active and Chair or this or that; there was Silence.
Uh-huh, thought I. But I stayed with it. Not only did I stay with it, I professed a fervent belief to the new interim pastor. I was so convinced that it was I that was at fault–for wanting some support; for daring to be weak; for not giving church my all. I was also terrified of Hell–hell is NOT stressed in my church, but again, I was raised around Catholics, and know about the brimstone from any number of sources, and have my own overly critical voice in my head–due to my abortion at this time. The pastors were kind and helpful at me at this time, but they didn’t help. Maybe no-one could have-I don’t know. I started to read the Psalms. Some helped, some didn’t. I tried so hard to be a good Christian-no doubt spurred by the whole sin thing and the guilt I felt over the abortion.
My conversion did not last. I started to read more and more Christian books, like The Ironic Christian’s Companion by Patrick Henry and Amazing Grace by Kathleen Norris. None of these books helped my faith, nor did the push me into disbelief. (I cannot quite bring myself to say, unbelief). That came next.
I call this Revelations, rigby-style.
My daughter, who had been raised in this church-who has babysat in the nursery, been a co-counselor at the church camp etc. My daughter confessed in her Youth group that she had doubts about Jesus and God. She did not feel that she could take or “do” Confirmation. Within a week, she was told that she could now not be a counselor at our church camp; that she would not be eligible for certain retreats etc. This, from a “family” that had supposedly embraced us for 15 years. I was stunned. The reasoning presented to me was that “we cannot have those who are not fully Christian teaching our younger members at camp.” As if.
My liberal, tolerant, affiliated with the United Church of Christ church told a 15 year old that it was not ok to be in a different place on your spiritual journey. WTF? I still get angry thinking about it. I no longer attend services on any regular basis. When I do (rarely)-my pastor goes out of her way to be kind and attentive.
But, see, I know now. Especially since my daughter-whose thoughts on Jesus have not changed a jot-“recanted” to her Youth advisor and became Confirmed the next year. Guess what? She was accepted as a camp counselor. She made a savvy political decision–and played them like a fish. Quite a lesson to learn at 16, no?
I must say that I think my anger towards Christianity swirls mostly around organized religion. But that is not the only focus of my distaste. The whole patriarchy, female marginalizing, Mary is the mother of Jesus, but he is the Son of God baloney just frosts me good. I have never been able to see the Bible as anything more than a collection of stories and social mores for a persecuted community attempting to survive. Alot of the stuff in the Bible is based on ignorance, plain and simple. Pork will NOT kill you–if it’s cooked correctly. We know this nowadays; there is no rational reason to not eat pork (never mind about vegetarians right now, ok?)-just one example.
Throw in the abuse of position by priests and pastors (we just don’t hear about those as much)–the whole “what have you done for us lately” attitude, the whole arms reach to embrace you, while patting your pockets for the width of the wallet, the whole we’ll pick out this bit of the Bible to follow and just ignore this bit, and ALL denominations do this, --and I must say I am done.
I cannot sit in a pew and “worship” when I feel that we are NOT worshipping at all. It seems more like a huge charity fundraiser than a spiritual experience to me. Where is the seeking for more knowledge–for further depths of meaning in passages, in ourselves? Yes, by all means, let us feed the hungry. I do not say that is not important work. But feeding the hungry does not feed me, spiritually. Sorry, but there it is. I deal with all manner of shit at work–I feed people (sometimes literally) all day long. Who feeds me? The pat, church answer is Jesus does. I am not feeling it, if he is. The next answer is, “that is what faith is–you must believe”. yeah.
I’ll get right on that.
Where is the mystery? Where is the hinting at of Truths both profound and profane?
And the language–it drives me nuts. Speak to me of passion, of weakness, of fear,and great love. Don’t pat me on the back with milktoast prayers of confession, tepid offerings, and feeble bleats of it’s OK. This is God we are talking about–not Alan Alda.*
To make a long story short–I now wonder if we have done the kids a dis-service by raising them within a church community. I can’t think of a more liberal church, in terms of social issues, around her. This is as good as it gets. I don’t want to church shop–I want to explore issues within my church. I can’t anymore–my questions seem to be too hard. Here is one: if it is stated, time and again, that no-one can judge where another is on their spiritual journey, than why are people indeed judged by that criteria? Here’s another one: why do you preach solely about Jesus? After all this time, it is starting to sound as if you are trying to convince yourself that he is the son of God. Why do we need to hear that every week? Let’s take it as a given and move on.
I just hope my kids know how to critically think–about everything, later in life. It’s as hard a road as being a good Christian, and perhaps I resent that it is not only dismissed out of hand, but is condemned as well.
thank you for letting me get this off my chest.
*I like Alan Alda, sorry…
Oh, lord–that should be “me” up there and not “I”–grammar nazis, unite!
Also, I didn’t actually answer the OP’s query. I guess I go from ignorant, but seeking to Christian to agnostic/deist.
I loved that story. Well done.
You may already know from my posts that I am a former Christian. I was even in the priesthood briefly at my church. I drifted far away from the church and my beliefs until about 16 or 17 years ago when I was going to counseling and it just so happened that my counselor was a spiritual guy and through him I got the idea that my spiritual journey was not over and did not have to reside in that denomination. Years later my beliefs are such that I wouldn’t really fit in to any mainstream Christian church although I have gone occasionally and still enjoy parts of it. I go for me and enjoy what I like and I don’t worry about the rest.
I understand the anger and resentment toward organized religion. I feel it myself. My conclusion is that they are just people doing what people do, like me. Sometimes nice and in the spiritual zone and sometimes not. We not only struggle on the spiritual path as individuals but also as communities. So, with some struggling I try not to expect churches to be anything but decent people who make mistakes but also do some good in the process. Honestly, some are not decent people and those few who still claim the name of Jesus really test my ability to forgive.
One story; In my own studies I believe our journey is uniquely our own and deeply personal between us and God. Sometimes organized religion and an "official doctrine get in the way, as it did with dealing with your daughters doubts. Doubts like that are the seeds of discovery. I heard a preacher a couple of years ago who was a counselor at a predominantly Christian college. He told of several of his students who were wandering away from the tradition of their church and exploring other options. He felt it was his job to set them back on the right path but he wasn’t sure exactly how to approach it. One evening as he was walking and praying about it he “got a rather clear message”
“Leave them alone, They are in my hands”
I almost stood up and shouted AMEN!!
In his sincere concern and good intentions he was about to interfere with the real personal spiritual quest these kids were on. Finding their own relationship with God. It happens all the freakin time. I was relieved to hear some minister say it out loud and to know he was open to it.
If I was going to suggest something I might suggest taking a look at a course in miracles and the book “The Disappearance of the Universe” Pretty interesting stuff.
If you’ve outgrown your church it is up to you to go looking for the next level and what is meaningful to you. It may not be another organization or it may be. I got to a place where I had to determine what questions were important to me and study on my own to answer them. I looked at lots of other religions and found seeds of truth in most of them but also the less than perfect touch of man. That’s okay… That’s how it is, how we are, how I am. Regardless of those times we may not see it or act like it, we are in this together. I did learn a lot and expanded my horizons by this studying.
So, thanks again for sharing your story. I enjoyed it very much. I hope you continue on to find something that really moves you in a meaningful way.
Aw, heck–Cosmodan made me cry (good, happy tears).
Thanks. I was not aware that you had a religous background, although your user name points to an interest in the infinite.
Do you have an author’s name for that book?
I am deeply interested in mystics and desert fathers–the discipline of monks has always intrigued me. I have not a lot of respect for the Catholic church re women, sex, and a myriad of other things–but by God, they kept pageantry and mystery alive in their expressions of faith. And they have saints–one thing I have always found distasteful is the Prostetant way of saying that we are all saints. As if–I know some true saints–good people who give up much for others, but they are few and far between. I would characterize the rest of us as faint, but pursuing!
I love threads like this one–I may be angered by some posts, overjoyed at others, aghast at still more, but there is much here to ponder. Thanks for your nice post re mine and I wish you well on your journey.
I would wish all here safe passage, no matter what path you find yourself on. I think what may be most important is that we be kind to one another and respect the difficulties that each path presents.
Sorry, forgot something.
I think that any congregation is a cross cut of people-good, bad and indifferent. It is not my business to know why they are in the pews on a given Sunday. I don’t htink the less of them for doing so–or for being nasty outside of church, all the while mouthing Christian platitudes. If a path is a given–who is to say where anyone is on that path?
I could go on and on, but don’t have time at present.
The thought of outgrowing a church never occurred to me. The thought of the energy and effort to join another–I find dismaying. I think I will sit in limbo for bit (Wicca appeals to me, at least parts of it)–dunno if this is AA’s phrase or some sage of old’s, but perhaps more will be revealed(for me).
I’m blushing.
The author is Gary Renard
I also enjoy a CD set made from a book titled The Power of Intention by Dr. Wayne Dyer. Yeah it’s the I’m OK you’re OK guy but he has ventured into the spiritual and there’s a lot of good stuff there. I often think that different terminology in different spiritual traditions is too feeble a barrier for people to allow it to separate them as easily as they often do.
Dr Dyer might say the Universal Mind of Intention and many Christians would recoil as if it’s an alternative teaching. Nope, it’s the same thing as the Holy Spirit using different words. In my studies it seemed obvious to me that if we believe that God is and there is one God, the same source of truth and love for all of us, we might easily believe that God would respond to the seeking heart of all people anywhere in the world, and that these different people might express the results of their own journey in various ways. Each way having a mix of spiritual understanding and insight and a healthy dose of mankind’s influence with plenty of tradition, ceremony, and mythology to get in the way. The seekers task is to try and sort it out. That’s what I enjoy about these two works is they seem to go beyond the boundaries of any organized tradition to just look at our spiritual nature.
If you happen to look at either please let me know what you thought. They may not be what appeals to you but I’d be interested in hearing that too.
Thanks
I can’t honestly say I try not to judge others. I do make judgement calls. I try hard to not be condemning in those calls. Being aware of how much I am in need of forgiveness for my own human shortcomings I try to reach out to others with forgiveness as well.
The joke at work is, “Let’s have a scavenger hunt and try to find a subject Dan doesn’t have an opinion on” The bastards. They know me to well.
Still, I think interaction and even confrontation is part of the growth process if we can do it with an awareness of our own need to learn. Not from a position of trying to win or control or prove we’re right, but just the desire to express ourselves honestly {and hopefully tactfully}with others. It’s in that interaction with all it’s joys and bumps and bruises that we see our own path more clearly and discover the areas we need to work on.
So onward and upward friend Doper.