Good one, Spritle!!
Do eyes count?
As I mentioned in another thread, ever since I confessed to a doctor about my schizophrenic tendencies (though I’m doubting I have it, it’s probably just my imagination), I’ve been attacked with paper cuts on my eyes. It’s all part of my imagination, but it’s so vivid that I actually feel pain. I’ve wanted to rip out my eyes at times, but since they’re useful for the most part I doubt I’d ever get rid of them.
So I sort of know how these people feel.
Care to elaborate on this one, KellyM? From where I stand there is; where you stand there isn’t. Simply saying I’m wrong doesn’t help matters any.
Here’s why I feel the way I do.
Besides the two points mentioned above, there are certainly amputees who haven’t regretted the procedure. I don’t know how the satisfaction rates differ between the two groups, but I know there is some similarity.
Some argue that the main difference is that of function: a transsexual is still functional as a human, but an amputee has lost some important physiological aspect of themselves. I disagree strongly, because the transsexual does indeed lose function- reproductive function, which anyone would have a hard time arguing is nonessential.
What about the closest link between the two? There are many men who have a castration fetish. Some have done it to themselves, some have had it done to them by others (sexual partners, doctors). Is such a procedure only psychologically valid if the man has his penis amputated, serious plastic surgery done to his nether regionsand breasts, and starts taking hormone supplements?
Many men with such a fetish do not do so for strictly sexual reasons. In point of fact, many of them speak to the same feeling transsexuals and apotemnophiles had from an early age.
If you can see that one dysmorphic condition exists and is not too “icky”, why then not another? Where have I gone wrong in assuming a strong link exists between these two practices?
thanks,
jb
I can remember sometimes lying in bed, after a long day on my feet, and my legs are so uncomfortable that I just want to hack them off at the knees. (Not really, but you get the idea…)…they don’t ache, so much as just feel really awkward and uncomfortable. I usually end up putting a pillow under my knees and I’m fine.
I doubt, however, that it’s the same thing.
Ok, here’s where I see the difference: Apotemnophiliacs are seeking to make themselves visibly abnormal (for reasons that may vary, but probably involve attention-seeking, sympathy, or self-loathing), while transsexuals are trying to make themselves more normal, consistent with personal self-image and the limitations of medical science.
As a transsexual, my preferred medical result would be to remanufacture my body with fully functional female genitalia and reproductive organs (and without the surplusage of body hair I currently have). This result is presently beyond the reach of medical science. The best I can get is a halfway solution that corrects some of my “birth defects”, but leaves me unable to bear children and forced to take hormone supplements for the rest of my life. This is closer to correct than what I was born with, at least. While the surgical result is less than ideally desired, it’s a decided improvement. I would prefer to be as normal as possible for a person of my gender, and any movement closer to that standard is desirable (at least, up to a point; I certainly have no desire to look like Barbie).
An apotemnophiliac, on the other hand, is not getting “closer” to anything that can credibly be characterized as “normal”. Now, I’m not trying to say that “normalcy” is inherently a good thing, but when people deliberately try to be “unusual”, especially at the loss of substantial function, we need to question the merits of that decision and look at why they’re doing it.
On the issue of reproduction: It saddens me that I can never bear my own children. I wish medical science was able to make that a possibility, but as of yet it cannot. Most male-to-female transsexuals feel this way. (I can’t speak for female-to-male.) The loss of reproductive function saddens most of us. Do apotemnophiliacs regret the loss of the limbs they have had amputated? From what I can tell, they don’t. I think many of them actually enjoy the dependence relationship that their amputee status creates. It reminds me in some ways of infantilism, another fetish which can easily be taken to unhealthy extremes.
Finally, as a transsexual I don’t care for being lumped in with these arguably deranged people.
In the strictest sense, yes, the situations are comparable, but I think the differences outweigh the similarities.
You might also consider whether your own attitude toward your testicles (as expressed by your signature) might have influenced your thoughts in this matter. 
KellyM, thank you for your input. I do agree that there are differences between the two groups of people. In fact, after reading your last post, they are greater than I had realized.
Please don’t think I was trying to say that transsexuals and apotemnophiliacs had the same motivations for their desires. As to my point about loss of function, I certainly retract that. I hadn’t bothered to consider that the inherent sterility was only a byproduct of our limited techniques.
That being said, though, I think my main point still stands. Namely, that this (apotemnophilia) isn’t as freakish as gut reaction would have it.
I disagree that most apotemnophilia is the result of a need for dependency. Then again, I read an article about it (not sure if it’s the same one) only once, about a week ago. Only recently (relatively) was transsexuality considered anything more than a sick obsession. If we’ve opened our minds (I mean us as a society, not you and I) to the fact that body and mental image of body can diverge remarkably, why do we accept only sexually-induced dysmorphia?
[quote]
An apotemnophiliac, on the other hand, is not getting “closer” to anything that can credibly be characterized as “normal”.
[quote]
Again, please don’t take offense to this, but a human with XY who is physiologically female is not ‘normal’ in any sense of the word either. If apotemnophilia is somehow wrong because the body was built genetic specifications, shouldn’t transsexualism be thusly classified?
I don’t think transsexualism should be, which is why I am wary (to the point almost of devil’s advocacy+).
later,
jb
Well, I can somewhat accept this. I personally cannot wrap my mind around the desire of female-to-male transsexuals to become male, either; I chalk this up to my own male-to-female transsexuality. On a theoretical level, I can understand the desire, but the idea of it makes me squirm, the same way the idea of sexual reassignment surgery makes many “normal” men squirm. (The idea of having sex with men also makes me squirm, though, so this “squirm test” definitely should not be used to decide whether something is a good idea or not.)
Transsexualism appears to be caused by a congenital defect, probably prenatal exposure to certain feminizing environmental influences and/or drugs. It is reasonably certain that it is not caused by postnatal effects. See, e.g., the story of Bruce/Brenda/John, the circumcision accident that John Money forced female and who return to male at adulthood. There appear to be physiologic differences in the brains of transsexual men from nontranssexual men.
If we could locate a similar cause for apotemnophilia, I would be less bothered by it. Still, the end result of sexual reassignment is a person who is, generally, fully functional as a productive member of society. An amputee will be limited in this regard, so I’m less comfortable with elective amputation since it creates a person who is likely to end up being a societal burden due to diminished capacity.
According to a study I recently read on failed sexual reassignments, the acceptance rate is 87% for male to female and 97% for female to male. I wonder what the acceptance rate is for elective amputation.
What is the sound of an apotemnophiliac clapping?
zen related observation:
Didn’t some kid reach enlightenment by having his Teacher lop his index finger off?
jb
BTW, I hope no one thought I was making fun of that guy on Springer. I mean, if he felt he was really a woman, or didn’t want to be a man, hey, more power to him.
I was just shocked that he attempted to aputate his OWN PENIS by HIMSELF. THAT is what lead me to think he was nuts. I mean, he almost died!
Nah…too easy.
LMAO…oh god, I didn’t even realize what I said…
:o
I’ve come close a few times. I have friends who’ve done it. Some of them died.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by KellyM *
(The idea of having sex with men also makes me squirm, though, so this “squirm test” definitely should not be used to decide whether something is a good idea or not.)
[QUOTE]
I’m a bit confused. I thought you became a woman because you were a woman mentally and to conform with this true identity? Why would the prospect of heterosexual sex with a man be “squirm” inducing for you.
Oh, Kelly, I didn’t mean anything nasty by it! It’s just that the idea of attempting surgery on one’s self leaves me kind of squeamish…as I’m a total pain wuss.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by astro *
**
Because I’m a lesbian. Duh.
What a touche!
Anyway, a bit on point:
The man who killed John Wilkes Booth was religious to the point of zealotry. One of the few records of him we have is a hospital note.
Seems he had talked to a prostitute earlier in the day, and in order to punish himself, got harsh. He sat atop his toilet, pulled out a pair of rusty shear, and cut his scrotum open. As soon as that was finished, he drew his testicles out of the sac and cut them off!!!
He had to go to the hospital a short while later for a black, swollen, pussy (sp?) empty scrotum.
ugh.
At least Jack Ruby was sorta normal.
jb
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by KellyM *
**
Duhly noted.
Ew. This sort of thing makes me squirm as much as anyone, which may come as a surprise to some of you. If you’re going to remove bits of your body, at least have the sense to do it under anethesia.
Oh, and KellyM? As testicucentric as I may seem, it is all chance and circumstance (last post notwithstanding). I infrequently use my sig, and was just as surprised as everybody else to read it! It’s a gem from the ‘squooshed nuts’ thread.
Now, let’s all get back to mutilation and dismemberment…
jb