Well, I’m active duty USAF RED HORSE. Last Thursday, on our training day, we had ‘rifle fighting techniques’. One of the more memorable moments was when I slammed a bag with my M-16, and heard the buffer and spring “snap”.
My instructor told me, “Don’t worry, it’s just the buffer and spring. The hammer hasn’t moved one bit!”
Being in my own safe tonight (my Pop is arriving tomorrow, and I wanted to see how much ammo I had to buy), I gave my other AR a drop to the floor on it’s butt. I pulled the trigger. The damned hammer fell in a dry fire ‘snap’. :eek:
So, now I’m genuinely concerned. Knowing I take my one AR camping/hiking/etc. with me all the time, how much do I have to worry that the hammer and sear are going to cycle themselves without me knowing it? Any of you other guys have this problem? I don’t carry ‘one in the pipe’, but it still bothers me the rifle is capable to fire. . .
Tripler
I say guys, but I mean gals too. This is something that’s bothering me. . .
That would bother me too. A single stage trigger like that doesn’t have much margin of wear between being okay and being unsafe, not like a two stage trigger with a lot of take up before it releases. I’d replace the whole trigger group including the springs. Make sure the pin holes in the reciever aren’t worn too as loose pins could be the culprit. Have you ever tried to do a trigger job? That’s a no-no I’ve been told as the sears are only surface hardened.
That’s how it sounded to me. I would certainly check the internals, and possibly replace them; but I’d also check the buffer spring. The bolt on an AR-15 ‘locks’ into the breech with a cam action. I’d say it’s unlikely that there’s anything wrong with the lugs on the bolt, but the bolt and bolt carrier assembly is held in battery by the buffer spring. If the buffer spring is weak, I can see how the bolt may become unlocked and move back far enough to cock the hammer.
You might want to clarify Tripler. I thought you said that dropping the rifle on the butt caused the cocked hammer to release as when firing as opposed to an uncocked hammer being cocked by movement of the bolt.
You go hiking with an AR-15? Why?
I am not a hunter - my knowledge of guns is a combination of a passing interest with a healthy respect for safety. But hunting with an AR-15 isn’t as wacky as it sounds. Don’t think of the rifle as much as the caliber round it fires: Ballistically speaking, the .223 is a fine choice for all manner of small game. Of all the rifles that fire the .223, the original AR-15 was reasonably accurate (and many copies since then are quite accurate), so why not? Sure, it is a semi-automatic, as opposed to the classic bolt-action of most hunting rifles. But it’s not like he’s out there with an Uzi (who wants to hunt with 9mm or .45ACP anyway?). But I suppose the best reason for hunting with an AR-15 is that people like you and I can stop and ask, “Why!!!” Nothing like bucking the trends, you know…
Hey, good point. That’s a pretty dangerous walking stick! No wonder he was alarmed by its auto-cocking tendencies! Maybe he uses it to open the cans of Dinty Moore Beef Stew. Hey, Homer used his automatic pistol to open cans of Duff, so why not??
Sorry for getting silly, Tripler. Gun safety is a VERY serious issue - we’re just having a little fun. I know that if any of my pistols were capable of such a problem, I’d take it pretty damn seriously. I hope everything works out - and be safe out there, brother…
I reread Tripler’s post and realized what is happening. It only takes a little movement for the bolt to slide back and cock the hammer. It has to move several inches in order to chamber a round from the magazine. I won’t say that is impossible but it would take a tremendously hard impact on the butt end to move the bolt carrier that far. Barring that I think there is no safety issue. There is no way to have a live round in the chamber of an AR type and also have the hammer down unless there was a failure to fire. I realize there is no way to authoritatively answer that without a test but I won’t abuse my weapons that badly even for a SDMB thread.
Not knowing the guts of an AR-15 (or M-16) by any means, but don’t these things have a safety? Even if something like what was described happens, why wouldn’t the safety catch the problem?
Are you saying that the bolt is forward, and dropping it on the butt is cycling the action? Because I’m assuming that you know that if the bolt is locked to the rear, a simple firm hand slap to the butt will cause the bolt to release.
Yes, the M-16 has a safety/selector switch. The 3 positions are safe, semi and full auto (or burst, depending on model). If the bolt inside the weapon is locked to the rear, and the safety is on, the bolt will still fall forward with a jolt to the gun. It doesn’t cause the gun to fire, but it will chamber a round if a magazine is inserted.
I’ve never seen anyone carry it in that condition with a loaded magazine. It’s always been either a closed bolt, empty chamber or a closed bolt, loaded chamber, selector on safety. Coming off a firing range, the magazine is removed and the bolt is locked open.
With an open bolt and loaded magazine, there is a small chance that the bolt could accidentally be released and cause a slam-fire if the firing pin was jammed in the bolt assembly. I’ve never seen it happen. It would take a lot of dirt or gunk to jam the firing pin.
I haven’t tried that one. I just use the bolt release catch on the side of the receiver.
You should also carry it with the dust cover closed. I fell off of my motorcycle once (yes, years ago) and landed on my back – which is where my AR-15 was slung. I had to take the bolt carrier out and wipe it off. Better to leave the dust cover closed when transporting. And don’t put in a charged mag until you’re reasy to shoot.
The former comment is exactly what I’m saying. The bolt was forward, and gently dropping it in line with the barrel will cycle the action. I’m not sure if the bolt carrier group is actually moving, but I sure can hear that buffer and spring rack. Actually, I know the bolt carrier group is moving if I can dry fire the weapon.
But it’s a relatively new rifle! Maybe a couple thousand rounds through it at the most. The other one (brand spankin’ new) has the same results on a similar “drop”. I wouldn’t think I’d need to replace the springs and/or sear just yet. . .
But Scruloose is also correct. A bolt locked to the rear can be brought forward by a sharp rap to the butt of the rifle.
For the record:
A. A lot of my hiking/camping involves “plinking”. It’s not always for protection from bears, etc. I have a morbid nemesis: empty Dinty Moore stew cans. I do hike to a couple of backcountry shooting ranges, though. . .
B. I do not carry with a magazine in the well–for pretty straightforward reasons. If a game warden or forest ranger saw me with the weapon in that state, they would believe that I had an intent to do something. I’d rather not be at the business end of anyone else’s gun for a simple misunderstanding.
Tripler
But it is a sobering thought to know, should you drop that rifle. . .
FWIW Tripler, I sent a note this morning to the armory Gunner’s Mate where I work to see if he could shed any light on this. If he enlightens me any, I’ll certainly post it.
If nothing else, I’ve always wondered just why the bolt would release with just a slap. Is that by design, and if so, why? I can only guess at this point. Does anyone here know?
The bolt release is spring loaded to clear the bolt and allow it to slide forward. It is supposd to lock the bolt if there is an empty magazine - activated by the follower - or if you move the release to the locked position by hand. It will stay that way if the bolt carrier is bearing against it. If the pressure is released by moving the bolt back from inertia or by pulling the charging handle and there is a magazine with ammunition or no magazine at all the relelase will open and the bolt will slide all the way forward.
It still bothers me, just that such a thing can happen, and unknowingly a shooter might think their rifle is in a particular firing condition, when in fact, it may not.