Are accusations of raicsm/sexism/bigotry abused?

[E-DUB]

I’ll make a deal. When the righties stop overusing “socialist”, lefties will stop overusing “racist”.

[octopus]

@Mr.Nylock

I work alongside minorities; in fact as a white person I am in the minority where I work. There are endless debates about what is and isn’t racist among my black coworkers. There is no consensus whatsoever, even over the use of the n word to a certain degree. In fact, there is a lot of pushback and derision against unfounded or very weak assertions of racism.

I think a major part of the problem is that people such as my coworkers, whom I have tremendous respect for, never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. Mostly what you end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.

That sounds right.

[Mr.Nylock]

@BigT

What I do do is go to the experts. I read about what black people are saying. I read about what people of other races are saying. I look at the studies. I look at the people who are highly regarded on these issues.

What I would never do is just talk to my black few friends and present their opinions as “what black people think.”

One black friend I had in school loved it when the girls would touch his hair–but now I know that’s a no-no in the wider community.

Oh, so there is a consensus among “experts” on this issue? I never knew.

[Mr.Nylock]

@E-DUB

I’ll make a deal. When the righties stop overusing “socialist”, lefties will stop overusing “racist”.

Again, no attention paid to the moderate opinions. Reducing all nuance and context surrounding this issue to a binary zero sum game seems to be the opposite of listening.

Statements such as this indicate to me that this lack of interest in listening extends even to those most effected by this issue.

[Ambivalid]

@JB99

While I think racism and sexism should be called out MORE often, the problem is that (A) nobody wants to admit to being racist and (B) people have different definitions for how ‘racism’ or ‘sexism’ is defined.

First, literally everyone holds some level of racist/sexist ideas, even if only implicitly. But the rhetoric is such that if a person says something impolite or ignorant, we immediately jump to saying “This person is a racist,” which is synonymous with “evil.” The assumption that ‘racist = evil’ causes people to shut down and avoid critically examining their behavior. Since no one wants to admit to being racist and the rhetoric against accused racists is so vitriolic, we have big obstacles that prevent understanding and actually improving people’s behavior.

Another definition I’ve heard is that “racism” is only when the powerful group exercises their power over the minority group. (This definition implies it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people.)

Your first two paragraphs are totally 100% spot on. I could not agree more. I can’t even add a thing to them.

This last sentence of your third paragraph, however, needs some attention. Anyone, of any race black, white or orange can
hold unchallenged racist beliefs that color their behavior. The reason you hear about only dominant groups being racist is because of the power of that dominant group to marginalize and disenfranchise the minority group(s) with those racist beliefs. The marginalized minority wields no power with their racism, not on a societal level. If the minority finds itself as the dominant majority, on however small a scale, the power of racism lies with them.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr.Nylock

I think a major part of the problem is that people such as my coworkers, whom I have tremendous respect for, never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. Mostly what you end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.

This seems to be a pet theory of yours: earlier this year you made this same ridiculous claim about me. It was, of course, wrong as hell. Do you ever find that it’s correct? Do you have any evidence to back it up at all? Or is it just too delicious for you (and octopus, apparently) to examine closely?

In case it’s not clear, I think it’s a very stupid theory, and I’ve seen very little evidence of its truth, and while I’ve not found a smoking bullet in the research, the gist of the articles I’ve skimmed suggests that white folks who live in non-diverse communities harbor greater, not fewer, white supremacist attitudes.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

This seems to be a pet theory of yours: earlier this year you made this same ridiculous claim about me. It was, of course, wrong as hell. Do you ever find that it’s correct? Do you have any evidence to back it up at all? Or is it just too delicious for you (and octopus, apparently) to examine closely?

In case it’s not clear, I think it’s a very stupid theory, and I’ve seen very little evidence of its truth, and while I’ve not found a smoking bullet in the research, the gist of the articles I’ve skimmed suggests that white folks who live in non-diverse communities harbor greater, not fewer, white supremacist attitudes.

Oh god, you’re coming to a great debate discussion digging up old posts to paint a picture of me as a bad wrong thinking person instead of responding to the actual points I am making.

And, as to be expected, your response is focussed on labeling other white people as bad instead of even attempting to entertain the thought that there is a diversity of opinion on this subject in minority communities, or to consider the real world impact of these issues.

[Sloe_Moe]

Yes, very. Not even up for debate, methinks.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Sloe_Moe

Yes, very. Not even up for debate, methinks.

I agree that the answer is very clearly yes but apparently the question is in fact up for debate.

I believe that accusations of anti-semitism are used to shut down criticisms of Israel. I believe some criticism of Israel is rooted in anti-semitism.

I believe accusations of racism are used to shut down opposition to some kinds of Affirmative Action. I believe some of the objection to affirmative action is rooted in racism.

I believe that accusations of sexism are used to shut down opposition to abortion. I believe that some of the opposition to abortion is sexist, slutshaming/slutpunishing[?].

I believe that accusations of homophobia are used to shut down opposition to forcing bakers to bake wedding cakes for gay marriages. I believe that some people refuse to perform services for gays because they are homophobic.

But these days we no longer seem to try to distinguish between bigotry and when Israel, women, blacks, hispanics, or gays are simply losing the argument.

[bump]

@senoy

I think that the big danger of racism/sexism accusations are not that they are false, but we are coming to a point where the low-hanging fruits are mostly agreed upon. For instance, there are very few people that would say “It’s OK to burn a cross on someone’s lawn.” or “Segregation was a good thing.” Where we’re at now though is looking at systemic problems and they are much harder to deal with. For instance, economic segregation. We know that schools right now are still largely segregated. Wealthier people who are overwhelmingly white live in neighborhoods with other wealthy people who are overwhelmingly white and send their kids to overwhelmingly white schools that are extremely high performing. People of color end up in far worse schools and end up with far fewer opportunities because of this. We KNOW this. It’s a complete fact. If though, you call this racist, you end up in a situation where you are telling people that in order to not be racist, they should live in poorer neighborhoods and send their children to schools that are lower performing. The response then becomes, “Why is wanting what is best for my child racist?” These are not people that intentionally want to oppress people of color. They probably have no problem associating with black people and might not even care if their children date black people. They may vote for black candidates and support black organizations. They still get painted with a brush of ‘racist’ though because they are perpetuating a class system largely based on race. That’s a hard pill to make someone swallow. The danger behind making them swallow that pill though is that they no longer respond to the term even for more egregious things. If you say “Moving to a white neighborhood with nice schools makes you racist.” it’s easy for them to dismiss that accusation. When you come back and say ‘Police targeting people of color is racist.’ it makes it easier for them to dismiss that accusation as well. It’s a very difficult line to tread.

Good point; and I think maybe it’s because the term is so catch-all, that it’s not a one-size-fits-all way of describing all negative things dealing with race.

For example, my personal opinion is that racism has to have a certain intention to do something based on race. Without that intention, it’s not racist, it’s something else. So when someone moves to a white area with better schools for their children, it’s not racist because there’s no intent to screw anyone of any color- they’re just using the means at their disposal to attempt to make things better for their children.

I also agree with Damuri Ajashiin that there are an awful lot of knee-jerk accusations of racism, sexism, etc… out there that aren’t grounded in fact- they’re just assumptions, but we just take them at face value and quit trying to determine if they’re valid or not.

Case in point- here in Dallas, there’s a huge amount of noise in the black community about the Botham Jean killing, despite any actual evidence so far that there was any sort of racial motivation whatsoever. It’s just assumed that since he was black, and there was a cop involved, that there has to be a racist element involved. We don’t know the full story yet- and I’m (full disclosure, middle-aged white male here) not going to jump to a conclusion that it was racially motivated yet. But that’s the narrative that’s being framed in the media, accurate or not.

[Ludovic]

The answer to the OP as asked is “yes”. The term is being watered down and is occasionally used to try to avoid meaningful discussions. A lot of the rest of the posts in this thread are saying “but there’s no real harm done”, which is not mutually exclusive with the OP. Saying “check your privilege” in order to not have to meaningfully address points (and get in a not-so-subtle ad hominem dig at the person in the process,) is not as harmful as saying “well, some of the neo-Nazis are fine people”.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Damuri_Ajashi

But these days we no longer seem to try to distinguish between bigotry and when Israel, women, blacks, hispanics, or gays are simply losing the argument.

I see statements such as this as tinged with bigotry - and they come from all sides. Sure, someone more to the left of me would be saying that’s a fine analysis because what I say is critical of someone expressing a more right wing position. However, I see the same type of thinking in about the same degree on both sides of the political spectrum. To me, the really awful thing that is occurring is that there is a lack of treating people as individuals with individual opinions that may differ depending on their individual experiences and circumstances.

Serious issues affecting the lives of everyday people are treated with the same level of intellectual heft as your standard soccer match with one side loving every controversial call as good if it favors them and bad if it does not and finding fault and ineptitude on even the most impartial umpire.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Ludovic

The answer to the OP as asked is “yes”. The term is being watered down and is occasionally used to try to avoid meaningful discussions. A lot of the rest of the posts in this thread are saying “but there’s no real harm done”, which is not mutually exclusive with the OP. Saying “check your privilege” in order to not have to meaningfully address points (and get in a not-so-subtle ad hominem dig at the person in the process,) is not as harmful as saying “well, some of the neo-Nazis are fine people”.

Okay, so the question “has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?” is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It’s a thing, just like saying “Well, you’re a woman, so obviously I win this debate” is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don’t like.

And it works. It’s the core of Trump’s message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it’s effective, is either about guns, abortion, or “sticking it to the SJWs”.

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting “bigot”.)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell “sexist/racist/bigot” far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Mr.Nylock

Oh god, you’re coming to a great debate discussion digging up old posts to paint a picture of me as a bad wrong thinking person instead of responding to the actual points I am making.

Well, no. You offered a theory with zero evidence. I pointed out that in at least one case in which you’d applied your theory, it was wrong, and that in general research seems to point out that it’d be likelier to be wrong than right, and I asked you if you had any evidence that it was ever correct.

Shall I take your attempt at diversion as sufficient answer to that question?

And, as to be expected, your response is focussed on labeling other white people as bad instead of even attempting to entertain the thought that there is a diversity of opinion on this subject in minority communities, or to consider the real world impact of these issues.

Of course there’s diversity of opinion in minority communities. Who the hell doubts that? (Spoiler alert: not me) But that’s not what this is about. I’m talking about your theory, and how dumb it is.

(Also, of course some other white people are bad. Who the hell doubts that some white people are bad? Again spoiler alert: not me, so not sure why you think that’s something to take note of)

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Okay, so the question “has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?” is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It’s a thing, just like saying “Well, you’re a woman, so obviously I win this debate” is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don’t like.

And it works. It’s the core of Trump’s message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it’s effective, is either about guns, abortion, or “sticking it to the SJWs”.

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting “bigot”.)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell “sexist/racist/bigot” far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.

Its not rare.

I would say that the majority of Israel threads I have been involved in have included some accusations of anti-semitic bigotry. Its often phrased “And these critics of Israel never criticize X, Y and Z country, now what is it about Israel that would make them single it out for criticism. Hmmm. What could it be?”

I don’t think it was rare for critics of Hillary to be accused of misogyny.

These things are not that rare. And it doesn’t win hearts and minds. It might shut them up for a while but it doesn’t win the debate. Not in a democracy. You don’t win just by shutting someone down.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Well, no. You offered a theory with zero evidence. I pointed out that in at least one case in which you’d applied your theory, it was wrong, and that in general research seems to point out that it’d be likelier to be wrong than right, and I asked you if you had any evidence that it was ever correct.

Shall I take your attempt at diversion as sufficient answer to that question?

Of course there’s diversity of opinion in minority communities. Who the hell doubts that? (Spoiler alert: not me) But that’s not what this is about. I’m talking about your theory, and how dumb it is.

(Also, of course some other white people are bad. Who the hell doubts that some white people are bad? Again spoiler alert: not me, so not sure why you think that’s something to take note of)

You are using cheap tactics to debate what I consider to be a serious and debate worthy subject.

However, if you would like (and are capable of having) a more serious discussion I certainly am game.

State, if you will, what you believe my theory to be. I have presented anecdotal evidence for the beliefs I have stated. Let us, however start with an agreed upon premise that accurately describes my beliefs.

[octopus]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Okay, so the question “has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?” is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It’s a thing, just like saying “Well, you’re a woman, so obviously I win this debate” is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don’t like.

And it works. It’s the core of Trump’s message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it’s effective, is either about guns, abortion, or “sticking it to the SJWs”.

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting “bigot”.)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell “sexist/racist/bigot” far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.

You see this nuttery on this very board all the time. It’s far from rare.

[MrDibble]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I would say that the majority of Israel threads I have been involved in have included some accusations of anti-semitic bigotry. Its often phrased “And these critics of Israel never criticize X, Y and Z country, now what is it about Israel that would make them single it out for criticism. Hmmm. What could it be?”

You’re not wrong.

[Alessan]

In my experience, Israel threads tend to have more people accusing people of calling them antisemites, than they have people calling people antisemites. I have not done any rigorous sampling to support this claim, though.

[AK84]

The asnwer to that the OP is “yes”.