Are all transgendered people mentally ill?

[Slash1972]

@Kimstu

Absofuckinglutely. If you don’t want to engage in any dating activity with HIV+ people, it’s on you to make that preference clear to potential dates. Your issue, your responsibility.

As previously noted, an HIV+ person is morally (and in many cases legally) obligated to announce their STD status before actually running the risk of infecting a date via sexual activity. Prior to that, though, they are entitled to keep the information to themselves unless a date asks them about it.

Fair enough. Out of respect for your consistency, I agree with you on this topic.

[Kimstu]

Thank you, and thank you for an interesting and intelligent discussion.

[Una_Persson]

@Slash1972

This is not true at all, nor do I see how you could possible think I think that, unless, like other topics on this board, anything less than 100% agreement with whatever you say means I 100% agree with the exact opposite.

I don’t care what gender you are. I’m talking about sex. If someone asked me “Who’s Una Persson?” I would say “Some woman on a message board i read”

If someone asked me “Would you have sex with someone who had a penis instead of a vagina?” I would say no, and it wouldn’t matter what their gender was.

In post #143, you didn’t refer to sex - your example was “gender typical women.” You’re saying that transgender women aren’t the same as women in general by making that distinction. If you misspoke and meant to refer to sex, then that would be different.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Kimstu

“Stairs” typo for “status”? If so, I think you’ve got it backwards: Increasing societal acceptance of transgender people is accomplished by society in general treating transgender status as just another normal variant of gender identity.

The ideal state of societal acceptance would be something like “Yeah, some women have or used to have penises, some men have or used to have vaginas, so what? Not my business what’s in everybody else’s underwear. Let people use whatever restroom they feel is appropriate for their gender identity, and stop worrying about what kind of urethral structure their pee is coming out of.”

OK I’m fine with transgender use of bathrooms based on gender.

Your demand that transgender people should have to pre-emptively announce their transgender status to strangers at the very start of the dating process would be the reverse of this kind of general acceptance. That’s saying that some women have to be prominently flagged from the get-go as a “different” type of women separate from “normal” women (and ditto for transgender men).

Yes. They are different to more than 80% of straight men. Different enough that they would not consider dating them. Until there is better general acceptance of transgender women, I’m saying they should be upfront about it.

No. Transgender women are women. Most women have had vaginas since birth. A small percentage of women have not. (And correspondingly for men.) That’s just one of the facts about human gender.

A material fact in the dating context. One that ought to be disclosed.

If you have particular requirements about genitalia or birth sex in a date, you’re the one responsible for making them known to potential dates, same as with any other particular requirements you may have about any other characteristics in a potential date.

Once again, that is wrong. When over 80% of people would object to dating someone that is transgender and less than 1% of the population is transgender, the most efficient way of avoiding bad matches is to have the 1% provide notice rather than have the 80%+ ask the question.

They’ll learn. It’s really not that difficult.

No, not they won’t. Mostly because people don’t give a shit.

“Last” typo for “least”? If so, big fucking deal: tort-law jargon is not what determines people’s responsibilities about discussing their personal lives.

If you ever start a dating site specifically for tort nerds, you can all agree what information is whose responsibility under what circumstances based on liability-law principles or anything you like. For ordinary social interactions in the real world, on the other hand, you don’t get to decide what other people are obligated to reveal about themselves just because you want to know it but for some reason are too chicken to ask.

I’m married, my cowardice has nothing to do with it.

Its not just tort law jargon. The principle is used in tort law to help us determine where burdens should be placed in a just society. What you are asking for is not fairness, its special treatment.

Less than 1% of the people you might date will be transgender. Not asking is not the result of cowardice, its the result of it being so rare that noone thinks to ask.

Sorry for the typos, autocorrect on my phone.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Kimstu

In what way is it a “burden” to take responsibility for making clear what your own requirements are for dating? If you’re the one who cares about it so much, you should be the one to put it on the table. Your issue, your responsibility.

You’re the one that is transgender and this is one more thing on the long laundry list of things that you have to deal with. Insisting that the whole world adjusts its behavior to accommodate you.

ISTM the only “burden” is what you’re placing on other people when you require them to guess whether and how strongly you feel you need to know their birth-assigned gender when you meet them.

80%+ of the population do not want to date someone that is transgender.

0.5% of the population is transgender.

You think it makes more sense for that 80% to make its preferences known rather than have the 0.5% tell peopple they are transgender (and to be fair, the number is probably a lot lower than that because they are transgender but have not started transition in any way shape or form).

Pfft, lots of people don’t want to date poor people either, but it’s still not a poor person’s responsibiity to disclose their economic status on their dating profile. Your issue, your responsibility, no matter how many other people happen to have the same issue.

Wrong. Entirely wrong. Being transgender is nothing like being poor. It is immutable. Poverty is not.

Once again, why on earth would somebody who supposedly cares so much about this criterion for dating be so resistant to making that criterion clear up front?

because its so fucking rare to run into someone that is transgender and can pass.

To take another “preferences” analogy, if you’re allergic to some ingredient and somebody who doesn’t know about your allergy invites you to dinner, do you expect them to spontaneously tell you whether or not the food contains that ingredient? Or do you say, like a sensible and sane person, “By the way, I should tell you that I’m allergic to Ingredient X and absolutely can’t eat anything with Ingredient X in it”?

Lets say that 80%+ of the population is allergic to something that is extremely rare (say poison ivy in an urban environment). Is it up to the diner to ask if there is poison ivy in the salad or should the restaurant say something about the poison ivy they put in their salad?

The latter, right? Because your issue, your responsibility.

As I have shown, it depends on how common the allergy is and how common the allrgen is.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Una_Persson

I’m grateful for the people here who consistently defend people like me. **Very **grateful.

I hope you don’t think I’m attacking you.

I think its deceptive to date someone who almost certainly thinks you are a typical man/woman when you are a transgender man/woman. I am surprised that people think that its a good idea to get 80%+ of the population to express their desire not to date transgender folks on a regular basis.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@andylongino

People who have same-sex partners and people who change their sex there is something not natural about this. About all this gays getting married more power to them. How can I hurt straight people. I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I won’t be allowed to adopt only in to a natural light and varmin I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I will be allowed to adopt only in to a natural like environment. I mean a man and a woman that I think should be married and that cannot have children or just wants to help should be able to do so. Can people of the same sex that is married should not at all be able to adopt for the child sake. They gave up that right of having children when they decided to get same-sex partners.

Can they adopt if they DON’T get married? It would be a weird world where single gay people could adopt orphans but married ones couldn’t.

I think an orphan is much better off with two gay parents than in foster care. I say let them adopt ALL the orphans if they want to.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I hope you don’t think I’m attacking you.

I think its deceptive to date someone who almost certainly thinks you are a typical man/woman when you are a transgender man/woman. I am surprised that people think that its a good idea to get 80%+ of the population to express their desire not to date transgender folks on a regular basis.

Did you miss the part about outing? Being outed can be hazardous to one’s career or life, in some circumstances. It’s entirely reasonable that someone might not be comfortable telling a stranger that they’re trans in a society in which trans people are so often mistreated and even brutalized.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Kimstu

Meaning, too bad for you? Yes. If your dating policy is to ask all potential dates about their birth gender to ensure that you aren’t dating anybody transgender, then you will have to accept that some people, whether cisgender or transgender, will be offended by that question.

And of course, the cisgender and transgender people whom you offend with that question will also have to accept that they encountered a potential dating partner who asks offensive questions. But I think everybody involved in online dating probably knows to expect that.

So you recognize at least some downsides to asking everyone you go out with if they are transgender and you still ask why people wouldn’t want to do it, unless they’re chicken of course.

(Note, btw, that this does not translate into a universal etiquette license to ask people about their birth genders in all situations. Only in dating situations are you ethically entitled to screen your acquaintances based on their genital characteristics.)

They have exactly the same choice that the transgender-dating-averse men we’ve been talking about do. Namely, either

1. state right up front what their preference is, or

2. keep quiet about their preference and accept that they may end up finding out somewhere down the road that they’ve been dating somebody who doesn’t conform to that preference.

Transphobic people are not automatically obligated to disclose that fact about themselves right away to strangers, any more than transgender people are.

The point is that if transphobic people (or more generally, transgender-dating-averse people) want to be sure that they aren’t dating anybody transgender, it’s up to them to make that preference clear.

And its a really bad indefensible point.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Una_Persson

In post #143, you didn’t refer to sex - your example was “gender typical women.” You’re saying that transgender women aren’t the same as women in general by making that distinction. If you misspoke and meant to refer to sex, then that would be different.

Hunh. I thought that was just how people referred to people who were not transgender.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Did you miss the part about outing? Being outed can be hazardous to one’s career or life, in some circumstances. It’s entirely reasonable that someone might not be comfortable telling a stranger that they’re trans in a society in which trans people are so often mistreated and even brutalized.

I understand the risk exists. I don’t think it will improve the situation to have people get surprised with their romantic partners transgender status when things start to get serious. The notion that everyone has to go around declaring their aversion to dating transgender is silly tho. And not disclosing borders on deception.

[Kimstu]

@Damuri_Ajashi

When over 80% of people would object to dating someone that is transgender and less than 1% of the population is transgender, the most efficient way of avoiding bad matches is to have the 1% provide notice rather than have the 80%+ ask the question.

Efficiency’s not the crucial issue here. Other people’s obligations to make pre-emptive announcements about their personal lives are not dependent on what you consider to be “the most efficient way of avoiding bad matches”.

**Your artificial social-utilitarian ideals of dating efficiency do not override other people’s ethical right to choose for themselves what personal information they want to announce in their dating profiles.

Nor do they eliminate the fundamental ethical obligation of grownups to take responsibility for telling potential dating partners what their own dating requirements are.**

@Damuri Ajashi

Less than 1% of the people you might date will be transgender.

Doesn’t matter, either for transgender or for any other of the numerous rare characteristics that most people don’t want in a dating partner. For example, less than 1% of people in the US are HIV+, too, and lots of HIV- people don’t want to date somebody HIV+.

That still doesn’t make it the responsibility of HIV+ people to announce their status to potential dating partners right away. It’s not about the statistical numbers or made-up rationales concerning “efficiency” or “cost”. It’s about the moral right of individuals to decide for themselves what personal information to reveal to strangers.

@Damuri Ajashi

Not asking is not the result of cowardice, its the result of it being so rare that noone thinks to ask.

So what? Other people are not responsible for guessing what your crucial dating requirements might be just because you can’t be bothered to bear them in mind yourself.

If it’s so important to you not to date transgender women, it’s up to you to remember that fact and regulate your own dating behavior accordingly. Your issue, your responsibility.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I understand the risk exists. I don’t think it will improve the situation to have people get surprised with their romantic partners transgender status when things start to get serious. The notion that everyone has to go around declaring their aversion to dating transgender is silly tho. And not disclosing borders on deception.

No one has to declare anything – by not declaring that they’re trans, a trans person is accepting the risk that their date may feel angry or disappointed in the future if the relationship develops to the extent that they reveal it. Many may decide that this risk is less dangerous than revealing it from the start. And by not declaring that someone doesn’t want to date a trans person, a cis person is accepting the risk that they may find out later that the person they’re dating is trans, and thus might be angry or disappointed.

Thus goes dating. Dating can result in anger or disappointment or lots of other things.

[Kimstu]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So you recognize at least some downsides to asking everyone you go out with if they are transgender and you still ask why people wouldn’t want to do it, unless they’re chicken of course.

:dubious: Oh, now you’re saying that the reason people don’t want to ask potential dates about transgender status is because there are “downsides to asking”, instead of your earlier claim that “no one thinks to ask”?

Yes, this attitude of demanding that transgender women pre-emptively announce their own status, in order to spare transgender-dating-averse men possible negative consequences of asking dates about their birth gender, is 100% chicken.

Either be honest about what your dating requirements are and take whatever negative consequences may ensue, or if you don’t want to be honest about your dating requirements, don’t whine that your potential dates aren’t doing enough to help you evade the consequences of your own dishonesty.

[Slash1972]

@Una_Persson

In post #143, you didn’t refer to sex - your example was “gender typical women.” You’re saying that transgender women aren’t the same as women in general by making that distinction. If you misspoke and meant to refer to sex, then that would be different.

Sorry, but I used “gender-typical woman” with a hyphen that you failed to quote properly. Gender-typical means someone whose gender matches their sex.

I also don’t appreciate you telling me what I’m saying. Asking me to clarify would be the better choice.

[Kimstu]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Lets say that 80%+ of the population is allergic to something that is extremely rare (say poison ivy in an urban environment). Is it up to the diner to ask if there is poison ivy in the salad or should the restaurant say something about the poison ivy they put in their salad?

Poison ivy is literally a non-food-approved poison which it is illegal to put in foods (and in some places illegal even to burn in the open air). Comparing that with transgender status is ridiculous.

[Una_Persson]

@Slash1972

Sorry, but I used “gender-typical woman” with a hyphen that you failed to quote properly. Gender-typical means someone whose gender matches their sex.

Yes I got that, but that wasn’t the point.

[Slash1972]

@Una_Persson

Yes I got that, but that wasn’t the point.

Well, maybe you can tell me what you thought the point was. Because that was MY point.

[Una_Persson]

Perhaps there’s a moral burden on cisgender men to take the initiative and be open and honest, forthright even, about their dislike, disapproval, or hatred of us in dating situations. Perhaps because the killer in almost all cases where a transgender woman is murdered is a cisgender man.

Or maybe cisgender men could actively police themselves, and teach each other not to murder people like me.

Naw, wouldn’t work.

So let’s consider something else.

If a cisgender person politely and reasonably preemptively outs themselves as not wanting to be with a transgender woman, the absolute worst that happens to them is some people might think a little less of them. Maybe. Whereas if a transgender person preemptively outs themselves in that same situation, they suddenly have painted a giant target for abuse, harassment, assault, and worse upon themselves. Is the peril equal in this situation? Doesn’t seem that way to me.

Or let’s consider something else.

The cisgender person is merely preemptively disclosing an opinion on compatibility of a mate. Whereas the transgender person must preemptively disclose personal and almost certainly painful medical information. Don’t even pretend like the two should have an equal level of expected privacy.

[Una_Persson]

@Slash1972

Well, maybe you can tell me what you thought the point was. Because that was MY point.

I told you that your post wasn’t clear. That’s the issue; your post was unclear.