Are all transgendered people mentally ill?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Miller

Libeling trans people as “dishonest” is not being respectful to them.

No, they are ONLY to be labeled dishonest if they are being dishonest by withholding material information about themselves. You go to far.

Insisting that they bear additional burdens not borne by cisgender people is discriminatory.

Nope they bear a burden that is a result of their unfortunate circumstance. Its one of the burdens THEY bear. You are trying to make THEIR problem everyone else’s problem.

Misrepresenting my argument as, “You think transwomen should be allowed to be dishonest,” is also not respectful. I am not arguing that it’s okay for trans people to be dishonest. I’m arguing that they are not being dishonest at all. If you can’t (or won’t) figure out that distinction by yourself, there’s not much point trying to talk to you further.

I suppose we might have different standard for honesty.

If I went on J Date knowing that the vast majority of Jewish girls on the site only wanted to date a Jew (I don’t know if that’s actually true but lets just say for the sake of argument that it is) and I knew they thought I was a Jew and I did nothing to disabuse them of the notion and started dating them. Would that be dishonest in your opinion?

[Miller]

@Damuri_Ajashi

No, they are ONLY to be labeled dishonest if they are being dishonest by withholding material information about themselves. You go to far.

You’re calling them dishonest for presenting themselves as women, instead of women-with-an-asterix. That’s not respect.

Nope they bear a burden that is a result of their unfortunate circumstance. Its one of the burdens THEY bear. You are trying to make THEIR problem everyone else’s problem.

“Might go on a date with someone who turns out to be trans” is not a burden. The fact that you keep trying to cast it as a burden - and moreover, the fact that you keep trying to present it as the heavier burden than what trans people face - is discriminatory.

I suppose we might have different standard for honesty.

No. We have differing standards on how to treat trans people. I think they should be treated respectfully. You, on the other hand, clearly don’t have any understanding of what that even means.

If I went on J Date knowing that the vast majority of Jewish girls on the site only wanted to date a Jew (I don’t know if that’s actually true but lets just say for the sake of argument that it is) and I knew they thought I was a Jew and I did nothing to disabuse them of the notion and started dating them. Would that be dishonest in your opinion?

If you were not a Jew, and you presented yourself as a Jew, that would be dishonest.

Transwomen are women. Presenting themselves as women is not dishonest.

[jayjay]

@Miller

If you were not a Jew, and you presented yourself as a Jew, that would be dishonest.

Transwomen are women. Presenting themselves as women is not dishonest.

We all know what this is about, even though it’s being tiptoed across. It’s about the straight guy not being put into a position where he might be attracted to someone who used to look like a man and therefore be forced to examine his sexuality.

[Trinopus]

@jayjay

We all know what this is about, even though it’s being tiptoed across. It’s about the straight guy not being put into a position where he might be attracted to someone who used to look like a man and therefore be forced to examine his sexuality.

Well, no. Trans- and homophobes aren’t suddenly going to have to worry that they’re gay. That’s not at the basis of the phobia.

It’s very simple: they don’t want to be intimate with someone they think of as a man.

It’s bigotry…but it isn’t the kind of weakness you’re saying it is. Racists don’t have to “examine their race” when they are attracted to people of a different ethnos. Religious bigots don’t have to “examine their faith” when they are attracted to someone of another faith.

Labeling shouldn’t be mandatory, but if one is on a dating site that has labeling, and indicates something untrue, that is the dishonesty that’s being called out here.

Putting down “None of your business” or just leaving the entry blank is not dishonest.

[Biffster]

@Miller

Transwomen are women. Presenting themselves as women is not dishonest.

Here is the crux of he argument. What makes a trans person trans apart from the simple declaration that they are trans? Are trans people allowed to change their minds about their trans identity and switch back? Can they straddle that fence? What is a person is asexual transwise?

I think it would be more honest to say transwomen are men who became women or would like to become women. They certainly weren’t born women, except for they very small number of people born hermaphrodites. “I am what I declare myself” smacks of a lack of reality.

[Una_Persson]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Yes, logic and reason frequently reaches an impasse with emotion driven feeling based arguments. I remember a time when logic and reason were the pillars of liberal thought while emotion and feelings were the backbone of conservative thought. I suppose I switches back and forth from time to time.

Of course you do. :rolleyes:

Its not really a back and forth,

Yes it is. See how that works?

Its private medical information: WTF? You think your gender is medical information now? You can’t hide behind HIPAA.

WTF? It’s not GENDER, it’s GENDER IDENTITY AS A TRANSGENDER PERSON. Most people have not sought medical treatment merely for gender.

Given no one in here has argued for a hiding of all gender, your rebuttal above is a misrepresentation of the entire argument here. You want to write a paragraph or three about why you misrepresented that fact? Let me guess, you’ll Google another Wiki entry on some logic trap or another… :smack:

Second, I never wrote “HIPAA”, so again you are deliberately misrepresenting the argument. Why don’t you address things I write, instead of things you wish I’d written?

Utilitarian arguments don’t apply because I cannot tell you the exact percentage at which the burden will shift from transexuals to those who don’t want to date transexuals: I’m still waiting for a reason why this isn’t a continuum fallacy. I mean you posted this argument half a dozen times and then never came back to after I pointed out that this was acontinuum fallacy.

From Wikipedia: “The fallacy causes one to erroneously reject a vague claim simply because it is not as precise as one would like it to be. Vagueness alone does not necessarily imply invalidity.”

Your “argument” is not invalid because of “vagueness alone,” it’s because you can supply NO metrics for how you arrived at your numbers. It shows a lack of any understanding of the reality involved, it has callous disregard for the safety and lives of transgender persons, and, most importantly, it’s dumb. You have no basis at all, so it’s a wild-ass guess. The continuum fallacy cannot be used to portray a wild-ass guess as anything other than what it is. Your attempt to hide your opinion behind it was so…odd…I actually wasn’t even sure you were serious.

No, I’m just criticizing dishonesty and the incredible level of moral flexibility we display in cases like this.

Not really…you aren’t criticizing the dishonesty of the cisgender person who refuses to come clean about their preferences. Nor have you criticized the moral flexibility of someone who expects an oppressed and victimized minority to put their information out there, but who is too cowardly to do the same from a position of privilege. Your criticism of dishonesty is entirely selective, self-centered, and biased.

[Una_Persson]

@Biffster

Here is the crux of he argument. What makes a trans person trans apart from the simple declaration that they are trans?

Previously covered in about 1,000 threads, and a few million places online.

[Slash1972]

@jayjay

We all know what this is about, even though it’s being tiptoed across. It’s about the straight guy not being put into a position where he might be attracted to someone who used to look like a man and therefore be forced to examine his sexuality.

Sorry, but at least for myself, and I would bet many others, this is not it at all.

I’ve seen many transgender woman that are super hot, I don’t have any problems admitting it.

[Biffster]

@Una_Persson

Previously covered in about 1,000 threads, and a few million places online.

But not covered by you in your reply here, apparently.

[AHunter3]

@Biffster

What makes a trans person trans apart from the simple declaration that they are trans? Are trans people allowed to change their minds about their trans identity and switch back?

What is gained by imposing upon individuals a gender identity that you think they should have no choice about?

Most people who identify as transgender are not particularly fluid. But a great many genderqueer people are. There’s a subcategory of genderqueer people called genderFLUID. They’re probably the biggest component of genderqueer, in fact. The simple most basic model of genderfluid is someone who has “girl days” and “boy days”, as in “I wake up in the morning and open my closet, and as I stare at my wardrobe I realize who I’m going to be that day”.

But not all genderfluid people’s fluidity is between “boy” and “girl” identities. There are people who oscillate between neutral (agender or neutrois) and guy, or between neutral and girl, and therefore identify as “demiboy” or “demigirl”.

I’m not particularly fluid myself (not all genderqueer folks are genderfluid). But I have to admit I don’t see why there’s so much emotional energy being invested in the notion that people should not have any choice. Is it because they don’t feel like they had any choice?

[Slash1972]

@Biffster

But not covered by you in your reply here, apparently.

Come on man. There are many threads about that. It’s because of questions like “What makes a trans person trans apart from the simple declaration that they are trans?” that I can’t have a discussion about the finer points of living in today’s society. I just get grouped in with people who ask such questions.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@puzzlegal

there’s a really big difference between “never” and “20% chance”. If you don’t apply for any job where you only have a 20% chance of being hired you may never find a job.

The hypothetical was that **everyone[/b in a town is convinced atheists are actually Satanists who sacrifice babies

If they said that 80% of the people in the town though athiests were Satanists, I think I would have said that if you knew that there was an 80%+ chance that the person you were dating would never date and atheist…

Yes, some people go on a first date with very little before that. Others don’t. Or so I gather from my friends who’ve done internet dating recently. If you want to make sure you don’t waste time on a first date with someone you’d not find compatible, you should probably use the slow route.

But I don’t think that every man who would be okay dating a trans woman would respond to a profile that says “trans”. People skip over profiles very easily. A lot of people comment on how they ended up in a ltr with someone whose profile they would have skipped over.

I don’t think people are very good at picking each other with these apps/sites. That’s one of the reasons some people like to meet quickly – because that’s the only way they can really learn who they find attractive, and otherwise they waste a lot of time messaging people who turn out to just not do it for them. I suspect that for a lot of people there is actually chemistry involved, and things like the person’s odor really matter.

Your theory seems to be that although 80%+ of people say they wouldn’t date a transsexual, you think that the number is really some number significantly below that because after they go on a date, then things might work out because they might like how the transexual smells? I suppose its possible that there is some population of people who might be closed to the idea who might suddenly find themselves open to the idea after a few dates. And if that is the answer then this seems to create greater risks of violence.

We’ve already heard that putting trans on your dating profile could lead to all sorts of horrible consequences including death. We have not yet seen any cites that transsexuals get killed for putting trans on their profile. We HAVE seen transsexuals getting beaten and even killed for revealing their transsexual status after a relationship has developed.

[puzzlegal]

Huh?

No, I think that you apply for jobs with a 20% chance, and you can try dating a population where you have a 20% chance. Because I don’t think going on a first date is “after a relationship has developed”. I think a first date in dating-app land is usually just “let’s check each other out”, not an intimate affair.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Miller

You’re calling them dishonest for presenting themselves as women, instead of women-with-an-asterix. That’s not respect.

This might be the crux of our disagreement. You think “transwomen are women. Full stop.”

I think they are women with an asterisk. There are significant and notable differences between a natural born woman and a man who thinks and feels they are a woman and gets surgery to modify themselves to anatomically appear as a woman. You do not menstruate, you cannot get pregnant, you have male DNA, your body does not produce estrogen in sufficient quantities, etc. etc. etc.

I will call you “ma’am” and refer to you as “she” and I won’t object if you want to use the ladies room (or even a locker room if you are post op). But you are no more a woman than Rachel Dolezal is black.

I mean if you are a women full stop. Then why do you have to ever tell anyone that you are a transwoman? Or are you saying that transwomen never have an obligation to inform their partner that they are transwomen?

“Might go on a date with someone who turns out to be trans” is not a burden. The fact that you keep trying to cast it as a burden - and moreover, the fact that you keep trying to present it as the heavier burden than what trans people face - is discriminatory.

I thought that disclosure was a given. That someone at some point would have to disclose that they are a transwoman or disclose that they don’t want to date transwomen. If we assume that this has to be done then it ought to be done by the transwoman.

I think most people agree with that. The notion that the rest of the world has to provide notice for every remote unlikely eventuality so that transwomen can date total strangers without saying they are transwomen is ridiculous on its face.

I thought the more debatable question was WHEN do transwomen have to disclose. That was the origin of this particular tangent. Whether Transwomen should tell their date that the are transgender BEFORE or AFTER you have started dating.

No. We have differing standards on how to treat trans people. I think they should be treated respectfully. You, on the other hand, clearly don’t have any understanding of what that even means.

Reported.

If you were not a Jew, and you presented yourself as a Jew, that would be dishonest.

Transwomen are women. Presenting themselves as women is not dishonest.

I don’t say anything. I just let the Jewish woman assume that I am a Jew but I am not even circumcised so I will tell her before we have sex, so that’s OK, right? As long as I tell her before have have sex?

Transwomen are women with an asterisk.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@jayjay

We all know what this is about, even though it’s being tiptoed across. It’s about the straight guy not being put into a position where he might be attracted to someone who used to look like a man and therefore be forced to examine his sexuality.

You think that we have been tiptoeing in this thread? :smack:

Its about what our standards are for honesty when a transgender person is dating a total stranger who is very likely under the impression that the transgender person is a cisgender person.

Perhaps you are saying that people shouldn’t even care whether someone is transgender or not. If I was a widower and I am well past child rearing years, I don’t know that I would care as long as everything else clicked but if I was young and past the sexual experimentation stage of my life, I would care.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Biffster

Here is the crux of he argument. What makes a trans person trans apart from the simple declaration that they are trans? Are trans people allowed to change their minds about their trans identity and switch back? Can they straddle that fence? What is a person is asexual transwise?

I think it would be more honest to say transwomen are men who became women or would like to become women. They certainly weren’t born women, except for they very small number of people born hermaphrodites. “I am what I declare myself” smacks of a lack of reality.

I don’t think people just do this willy nilly.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Una_Persson

Of course you do. :rolleyes:

The edit window closed but that last sentence should have read “I suppose it switches back and forth from time to time” I don’t think I switch very much. I think I am left of center.

Do you really think that only a conservative could take the sort of positions I have taken?

Yes it is. See how that works?

No, its not a back and forth because that implies parity in our arguments. This sort of false equivalence is Trump’s method of argument.

WTF? It’s not GENDER, it’s GENDER IDENTITY AS A TRANSGENDER PERSON. Most people have not sought medical treatment merely for gender.

Given no one in here has argued for a hiding of all gender, your rebuttal above is a misrepresentation of the entire argument here. You want to write a paragraph or three about why you misrepresented that fact? Let me guess, you’ll Google another Wiki entry on some logic trap or another… :smack:

Second, I never wrote “HIPAA”, so again you are deliberately misrepresenting the argument. Why don’t you address things I write, instead of things you wish I’d written?

OK, so then can we agree that a transwoman person is NOT as Miller would have us believe “a woman, full stop” There is no misrepresentation here. I suppose that’s the word you use when you want to call someone a liar without crossing the line? It’s not like I’m going on a date with a total stranger and not telling them I am a transwoman when it is very likely that the person I am dating never even considered whether or not I am a transwoman and thinks I am a natural born woman.

From Wikipedia: “The fallacy causes one to erroneously reject a vague claim simply because it is not as precise as one would like it to be. Vagueness alone does not necessarily imply invalidity.”

Your “argument” is not invalid because of “vagueness alone,” it’s because you can supply NO metrics for how you arrived at your numbers.

I don’t think you understand the fallacy. I said that 0.5% vs 80% places the burden on the 0.5%. I think this is clear and self evident. I thought your argument has been that this is not true because I can’t tell you where the tipping point is between when the burden lies on the transgender person and when it lies on the rest of the world. Are you arguing that the numbers need to be skewed even more? Like 0.1% and 99% for the burden to be on the 01% of are you saying that the burden should never be on transgender folks?

It shows a lack of any understanding of the reality involved, it has callous disregard for the safety and lives of transgender persons, and, most importantly, it’s dumb. You have no basis at all, so it’s a wild-ass guess. The continuum fallacy cannot be used to portray a wild-ass guess as anything other than what it is. Your attempt to hide your opinion behind it was so…odd…I actually wasn’t even sure you were serious.

Callous disregard for the safety and lives of transgender persons? I might be inclined to believe that if you had provided ANY cites of transgender folks getting murdered because they put transgender in their dating profiles. I can provide a pretty long list of transwomen that were killed because their date found out about their transgender status later on. I can find no incidences of a transwoman being discovered form a dating profile, stalked and killed. But you probably have better information.

Not really…you aren’t criticizing the dishonesty of the cisgender person who refuses to come clean about their preferences. Nor have you criticized the moral flexibility of someone who expects an oppressed and victimized minority to put their information out there, but who is too cowardly to do the same from a position of privilege. Your criticism of dishonesty is entirely selective, self-centered, and biased.

No, because there is n dishonesty there. Unless the cisgender person has the issue brought to their attention, there I no reason for them to even think its an issue.

As Ambivalid stated, the burden of disclosure is on the person who has the rare circumstance to disclose rather than on the rest of the world to disclose their aversion or openness to every rare circumstance in existence. As with every general rule, there are exceptions and if you could provide just a few examples of tranwomen being stalked and murdered because they disclosed their transgender status on their dating profile, you might be able to make a case that this is one of those exceptions.

I have no doubt that transgender folks encounter horrible discrimination but that is not enough to justify being dishonest when you are dating a total stranger. Especially considering that the failure to disclose before meeting seems to lead to more violence than disclosing seems to.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@puzzlegal

Huh?

No, I think that you apply for jobs with a 20% chance, and you can try dating a population where you have a 20% chance. Because I don’t think going on a first date is “after a relationship has developed”. I think a first date in dating-app land is usually just “let’s check each other out”, not an intimate affair.

OK. I haven’t been on a date with anyone other than my wife since Bill Clinton was President. So maybe I don’t understand what dating, particularly online dating is about these days.

But you can also filter out that other 80% by saying you are transgender. Save yourself a lot of time and possible violence.

[Biffster]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I don’t think people just do this willy nilly.

They may or they may not. The point is they can.

[Una_Persson]

You do understand that a couple of days ago I let your last post stand, said there wasn’t a meeting of the minds, and was willing to just walk away, right? Then you came at me again despite my not responding to your last post. I don’t think that’s good behavior, when I’d let your last post stand. I didn’t insult you in my reply to Miller, I said that it was an endless back and forth and neither side was going to convince the other (meeting of minds).

I don’t think you and I will agree on this. I don’t think that further discussion will foster agreement or awakening within the other person to suddenly agree. I only replied because after I let your last post stand and said I was walking away, you kept on after me.

@Damuri_Ajashi

The edit window closed but that last sentence should have read “I suppose it switches back and forth from time to time” I don’t think I switch very much. I think I am left of center.

I didn’t mean you personally switched back and forth. I meant the discussion was back and forth. In that one person argues, the other argues back, etc., etc. on the same issue. I fear you read far too much into that.

No, its not a back and forth because that implies parity in our arguments. This sort of false equivalence is Trump’s method of argument.

Didn’t you earlier accuse me of a “Godwinization” of the debate by bringing up Trump? In fact, it was post #455.
Can you explain why it’s a “Godwinization” when I refer to Trump, but not when you do?

OK, so then can we agree that a transwoman person is NOT as Miller would have us believe “a woman, full stop” There is no misrepresentation here.

Except I’m not Miller, and I never wrote “a transwoman is a woman, full stop.”

So I ask you again, in your response to me, why did you misrepresent “gender identity as a transgender person” as simply “gender”? You really need to address that, because it doesn’t look very good to my eyes.

I don’t think you understand the fallacy. I said that 0.5% vs 80% places the burden on the 0.5%. I think this is clear and self evident. I thought your argument has been that this is not true because I can’t tell you where the tipping point is between when the burden lies on the transgender person and when it lies on the rest of the world. Are you arguing that the numbers need to be skewed even more? Like 0.1% and 99% for the burden to be on the 01% of are you saying that the burden should never be on transgender folks?

The entire thing comes down to this:

I have an opinion. It’s an opinion.

You have an opinion. It appears to myself and others that you are trying to present your opinion as fact via an appeal to an argument of utilitarianism. But said argument is by definition one which defies hard boundaries, thus it can be questioned, challenged, etc.

No, because there is n dishonesty there.

And I and others here absolutely disagree.

As Ambivalid stated…

Ambivalid is not a transgender person, nor an expert on the subject, nor seems to have any meaningful connection with my community at all. His comparison of he and his community with me and mine does not hold any water as far as I can see. And I’m not going to play “let’s you and him fight.”

I have no doubt that transgender folks encounter horrible discrimination but that is not enough to justify being dishonest…

I see what you did there. The fact that the other side of the equation is dishonest and cowardly about hiding their preferences or bigotry is something you appear to be not willing to consider, and thus I don’t see why we need to continue.