You’re assuming that gender is not a fluid thing. What about two spirit people? They’re on the spectrum too.
(Note: added the fix you missed the edit window for)
I’m a little puzzled as to what “loophole” you see people exploiting, or how you see the cost-benefit of this shaking out. Let’s ignore for the moment that being transgendered still carries pretty intense stigma with it. Let’s assume that your school just doesn’t have that at all. Weird, but okay, lucky you. In that case, the guy who pretends to be transgendered to get into the girls changing room will still seem like a total creep (and you can be your ass everyone finds out about it), with the added bonus of (justified) accusations of not taking gender dysphoria seriously. Oh, and if it actually came out that this was what was going on, how do you think the school administration would react? It would not serve them well. And for what? The ability to see some women naked in changing rooms? We have the internet now; it’s not that titillating. The way I see it, you’d have to be the kind of person who commits in-person voting fraud to think this is a good idea.
Thanks for the fix. On my phone, there is no fix window; once it’s submitted, it’s submitted. Thing is, I agree with you. There’s not much to be gained by sneaking a peek. But did you check out the social experiment video where the clearly male guy wears a wig and dress and tries to use the women’s washroom? There was not a lot of peace and understanding there, although technically, he could well have been transitioning. Fact is, a lot of people are not ready for this change to public washroom social morés, and will not react with an open mind. Individual washrooms? No big deal. Our washrooms at home have been gender neutral at home since forever, and I’ll bet yours have too. But public washrooms are a different matter.
First, gender is not necessarily a fluid thing. It can be, but it’s not common. That’s what people have been saying in here.
Second, you were asked to link to the policy manual which lets students change back-and-forth at will, any time or multiple times per day, with absolutely no validation nor verification. Will you do that? Or at least give us the name and location of the school, and maybe I’ll phone them up next week or e-mail them and talk to the Head about their policy.
You admit yourself that it hasn’t been a problem thus far. So…what? So what if a cisgender boy lies to get into the ladies room. As long as they are not doing anything untoward in there…where’s the damage? If they go into a stall and pee/whatever, then…where’s the dire damage you’re implying occurs?
Whereas if someone is in for prurient reasons, it doesn’t matter if they’re a transwoman or a cisgender female or anything else. Punish the action when it occurs. I’ve seen cisgender lesbians do “untoward” things in the bathroom several times. Just last week a cisgender lesbian wanted me to come into a stall with her for…games. Transgender persons…never IME. And given that I’m almost always in a trans* space every week, you’d think I’d be running across it by now.
I can’t say it never would happen, or never happens, because that’s silly and ignorant. Given a population of half a billion in North America, sure things happen. As I said, I read about a man who ate a bicycle once.
This whole issue was covered in the innumerable trans bathroom threads on here. Did you participate in them? What did you learn from reading all of them?
Indeed, you are entirely correct. I rather think that a lot of the fear and loathing men have over transgender persons in the ladies’ room is more them manifesting their own personal wank fantasies as their version of reality.
Outside of seriously wild nightclubs (the sort of places where people are having sex on the dance floor), the most I’ve ever seen in a ladies room was a woman who took off her top to cut a price tag she had accidentally left in it. Her bra covered a lot more than most bikini tops do, oh heavens!
You seem a little touchy here, no offense. No I did not read the innumerable bathroom threads on here because I’ve not seen them. I didn’t realize one had to do an exhaustive search before one could comment on an open forum.
I am also not going to quote the policy manual for you to pick apart. If you want to believe that are no people out there who might seek to exploit trangenderism for nefarious purposes, that’s your privilege. I’ve already provided you a video that shows how it can be done. What did you learn from it?
I believe there is a whole lot of gray area in gender definitions today, and that if someone declares themself to be a fence-sitter, why should that be any less acceptable than a man’s mind in a woman’s body or vice-versa? The whole gender redefinition movement smacks a fair bit of making it up as one goes along. Perhaps we really need to think this through.
One transgender student I spoke to says he just avoids using the bathroom at school at all because the situation is such a clusterfuck. I’d think we can do better than that.
“Non-binary” and “none of the above” are beginning to appear as options in questionnaires. That’s perfectly acceptable to most of the people who favor trans-rights in the first place.
I think it is a form of “mental illness” but not necessarily by medical definition, more so by basic human design. - I’m Agnostic btw if this has any impact on my view.
A fundamental point of most species (pretty much all alive today I believe) is our natural desire to re-produce. I think it’s one of the most core values to a Human being and without it we wouldn’t exist today.
Because Transgenders (pre-op) think that they are in the wrong body, they often then have serious problems with reproduction. If the gender in their head doesn’t match the gender of their body, then their means of reproduction isn’t cohesive.
As for why I view it as body > mind, I think it’s because the very reason we have different genders in the first place is simply to reproduce. There are some species out there that reproduce without the same kind of basic male/female design that we have, but it is always used in some way or form to reproduce.
However If someone was black and wanted to be white, or someone is white and wanted to be black, I would consider this a “design feature” since I don’t think the implications on any core values of humans are anywhere near as endangered.
I think we should absolutely try to help these people any way reasonable, but I wish it would be more subtle and on the medical side, instead of pop culture, news, and laws trying to ram it down peoples throats which just alienates those who disagree even more.
How about someone who presents as a fifteen year old but really feels 35 on the inside? Should they be served alcohol?
Then we have the option of thinking that you have just imagined it.
Well. First, I learned that amateurs can make really bad and stupid videos and that idiots that want to pretend that they are transgender will probably not be allowed to get away with it.
I, too, think that we can do better. However, it does not help to get there if one continues to promote the position of Far Right weirdos who want to imagine that thousands of perverts are skulking around trying to pretend to be transgender just to be able to see a woman walk into a restroom stall.
Why on Earth not? It’s not like you wrote it. If it’s stupid, or full of crap, none of that’s on you - hell, aren’t you the one trying to convince us that this is a bad policy? Show it to us! If it’s the way you describe it, you’ll probably get a bunch of people to agree with you.
Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, it’s not like there aren’t a hundred books written on the subject, right? You’ve never read any of them, so clearly they don’t exist.
Yes and you never responded to the allegation.
Turns out that making that sort of accusation about you elicits a response.
Oh its totally godwinization. But you never seemed to think that you were engaging in it. Do you now acknowledge that you were engagingnin godwinization by trrying to link me to Trump?
So do you agree with him or not?
I suspect that nothing that imposes and of the burdens of being transgender on transgender people will look good in your eyes. I’m sorry that you are transgender, its not something I would wish on anyone but in the end, it is your burden and not society’s burden.
No, pure baseless opinion is not the same as one backed by moral, economic and philosophical arguments. What you have is an insistence that people see things your way without any reason other than because people like you. What I have is an argument.
And these other people and you are wrong. I have stated exactly why you are wrong and I suspect that most people would agree that you are wrong to call someone dishonest for not disclosing that they have an aversion to a condition that applies to 0.5% of the population. But as you say, morality is not a popularity contest so when deciding what is right or wrong we use concepts like utilitariansim. You actually provide no basis for your arguments.
But there seem to be ready analogies between the disabled and the transgender. Why is his comparison invalid? He made a a statement and you entirely ignored it because it demolishes your position.
But youa re the only one that seems to be saying that everyone who is averse to transgender is being dishonest by not disclosing their aversion. Not even Miller, your most fervent ally in this debate. You are making a silly argument, there may be some good arguments out there for your position but this is not one of them.
Its a material fact.
So I will repeat my hypothetical.
If I go on J Date and neglect to tell the women I date that I am not Jewish, perhaps in the hopes that they will be so smitten with me by the time I finally tell them that they will just go with it. I assume most Jewish women will just assume that I am Jewish. Am I being dishonest for not telling them?
I think plenty of guys find plenty of transwomen attractive. That’s not the issue is it? I find a lot of people attractive that I would not want to date.
It seems a slippery slope. What about a chicken that identifies as a giraffe and wants to live in a zoo with other giraffes.
I think lack of cohesion between body and mind is a complex one and has to be assessed on an individual case basis of risk vs reward.
I think in this specific case regarding to alcohol, the answer is no. The damage that alcohol can do to undeveloped bodies, combined with the potential domino effect damage something like this could do in society is a dangerous one. They also shouldn’t be allowed to drive for the same reason. It not only poses a risk to them but also to those around them.
With a Transgender it is usually a more about ones self and for the most part has little implications on surrounding people. And the risk to oneself via surgery is often deemed worthwhile considering the reward, and the TG has to be 18 in pretty much all countries to give this consent and personally weigh that risk vs reward up.
Jdate has a profile option to indicate such things so whether honesty or dishonesty is implicated would depend on how they represented themselves.
This isn’t the case in the trans example. If I only want to date people with good credit, a person not volunteering their FICO score and SSN isn’t being dishonest. Implicating honesty is well poisoning.
Good answer, thanks.
You’ve tried to present your policy manual as evidence. Now you say you don’t want to “quote” it so I can “pick (it) apart.”
:dubious:
Major medical bodies, physicians, psychiatrists, psychologists, and researchers around the world have been thinking it through for decades. It is most unfortunate that they generally disagree with your assessment.
I wouldn’t know. You won’t supply the evidence to back up your assertions.
Wait, you just admitted to trolling someone in Great Debates? Really? And you say I never responded, yet somehow it elicited a response? You really need to start typing better. I’m not the only one who has had to fix your frequent typos.
Oh, and it didn’t require a response; it was just one of many accusations thrown out by you. There have been so many it’s difficult to track them all. What’s that expression, keep throwing shit all day, and see what sticks?
What we need to establish here is why you think that my lack of response somehow gives you the moral backing to be hypocritical and do what you attempted to demonize me for doing.
Since when did your argument with him involve me? Sorry, not going to bite. Are you unable to speak to Miller yourself for some reason? You should try e-mailing him, if he’s not able to respond to you.
Do you mean “any of the burdens?” You seem to make a lot of typos, and that’s probably one reason why you look like you’re all over the map.
Unfortunately for you, earlier I specifically mentioned that transgender persons should be straightforward before physical intimacy. It was post #113, where I said “If the person is pre-op, then IMO YES, there needs to be some explanation prior to any sexual act.” I expect if you want to be forthright, you’ll issue a retraction in your next post.
You will do that…right? Be honest and forthright about what the record shows?
And “society” takes on all sorts of burdens. The sick, the disabled, minority ethnicities, minority cultures, minority religions or lack thereof, the outliers, the unwanted, the “freaks and geeks.” We wouldn’t have an ADA if not for the problem of the few being taken on by “society.”
You cannot be unaware of this.
I guess your arbitrary breakpoints are high enough that you can show some kindness and forbearance towards the disabled - just not my folks.
Oh I guess one more thing:
First off, he didn’t quote me, nor address me. You have engaged in the false logic that I need to respond to any and all statements in here, for some reason. Yet you yourself are not doing such. Why is that, I wonder?
Second, if there were really all these “ready analogies,” I’m sure you would have listed them, instead of playing your usual bit of trying-to-be-sly innuendo. Please.
Third, anyone who took this subject seriously would know that disabled persons face discrimination, absolutely, they face abuse and violence, yes - but I can’t find strong evidence that they aren’t being stalked and murdered at a rate like transgender persons are. It most states transgender persons can be discriminated against, denied employment, denied health care (including non-transition health care), underemployed, fired, etc. openly and simply because of our status. Read the National Transgender Discrimination Survey. Oh wait, that would be asking you for legwork, and you won’t do that…
There are not major religious groups in America calling all handicapped people, everywhere, the spawn of Satan, evil, immoral, disgusting. Transgender people are not protected by the ADA, nor thus far by the Civil Rights Act. Parents aren’t cramming school board meetings and PTA meetings demanding handicapped children be removed from school, segregated from all other students, even imprisoned against their will - simply for existing. Parents of transgender kids here in my area share the MP3s of the death threats left on their answering machines - people phoning them up in the middle of the night to threaten to murder a 7-year-old in cold blood - because she was born transgender. I’ve been at their house when the call has come in, heard it live.
Disabled people are a discriminated group, and they are disliked by many, and even hated by a small few. But to claim it’s the same rate and same intensity as me and my people…really speaks volumes. You really don’t understand us as a topic or a people, and this is why this issue looks so black-and-white to you.
So despite your “let’s you and him fight” shtick (which was old in 1999 when I started reading on here), you’re so off-base it’s not even credible.
So much for your “demolishes your position.” Next time, make sure you post “winning!” :rolleyes:
But you don’t get any more chance to try to play the game and try to jerk me around. It’s clear you will never come clean about your hypocrisy and your strange ignoring of post #113, and your admission of posting things to get a reaction from me (ahem) and your frequent attempts to try to play “you and him fight” tell me I could write a million more words and you’d just sit there laughing at me, and from what I gather from your character, those like me.
So you have done something that is difficult to do; you have bored me. And on this message board, that is a moral sin.
Whew! That just got a little too personal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk