When many trans people have a negative experience (or know someone with a negative experience) from doing this, why would they think this is always a good idea? Some trans folks do this as a matter of course, accepting the possibility of these consequences (the most common of which based on the folks I’ve spoken to is “internet-outing” – that is, posting on social media or the dating message boards or similar that this particular person is trans and should be avoided), while others only feel comfortable coming out to someone that they’ve developed personal trust with.
Why is that not reasonable?
A cite for an anecdote? Does this post count? You can click on the number at the top. Multiple trans people have told me personally (in person or in online discussions) that they’ve had these sorts of experiences.
No it doesn’t, any more than a mixed race person who passes as white must necessarily reveal their mixed race status before a date, or a rich (or poor) person must necessarily reveal their finances before a date, or a person with a disability (say a non-functioning hand) must necessarily reveal this disability before a date, etc. Not revealing personal details before a first date is not necessarily dishonest, and these examples do not qualify.
I take it that you haven’t been reading my posts, since I specifically recommended a course of action (which has been suggested to me by trans folks themselves) that would avoid any such negative consequences – don’t engage in any intimate contact with anyone not aware of one’s gender identity, and feel free to refrain from telling anyone about one’s gender identity until one has developed a personal level of trust.
Based on the experience of trans folks I’ve heard from, this minimizes the chance of negative consequences.
Claiming that undressing is separate from the issue of “intimate contact,” in this discussion, is a level of pedantry that negates whatever you are trying to claim.
LOL. Yes, getting naked (especially in a hotel room or other private place, as opposed to a gym locker room) is intimate contact. I figured that was obvious, but maybe some folks get nude with people all the time and don’t consider it intimate.
Wow, I assumed that intimate contact required, you know, some sort of contact.
But I can go with that, whatever.
So now we have, according to you 1) Reveal when you trust the person not to tell people and 2) Before intimate contact (including undressing)
That’s sums your feelings up, right?
So, according to you, it’s safer for a transgender woman to wait until she is alone in a room with a guy, about to get undressed, before she tells him then she would be if she told him in a public bar before they went to his room?
expect sex on the first date and if you don’t get it you’re annoyed at the other person for wasting your time, and
you don’t think undressing is an intimate act
I am so glad we are not in the same dating pool (I assume - I’d hate to encounter you by accident. Maybe you should put “expect sex on first date” and “nudity is not intimate” in your profile just to be sure.)
I think most of us think waiting for “alone in the room before just before sexy times” is a bit late. I think what at least some of us are saying is that the revelation should occur some time before undressing and sex/playtime, but since quite a few people DON’T feel entitled to sex on the first date this can occur after an initial meeting before proceeding to additional meetings/sex.
You’re the one assuming “first date” also means “have sex”. Drop that assumption and consider that there is a group of people out there who use the first date to assess the other person and sex comes later, if at all. If the transwoman has that first date and decides the person is incompatible for whatever reason there really is no reason to discuss the status of genitals at birth vs. present day, is there? Only if the transwoman thinks the other party is worth further encounters would that information become a consideration.
I think quite a few of the transgender community are psychologically damaged and/or suffering from PTSD, and this comes from how society treats them more than from being transgender.
If you’re treated as a crawling horror, abandoned by family and friends, systematically discriminated against, unable to find gainful employment outside the sex industry (for which you are further discriminated against), denied housing, employment, and so on… that is going to seriously mess you up regardless of why you are treated in that manner. Add in things like beatings and rape and the rate of mental illness and behavior dysfunctional is hardly a surprise. This is damaged inflicted NOT from being transgender but from society.
Which, to my mind, is yet another reason why anyone transgender needs competent and effective counseling. If society was more tolerant there’s be less damage to transgender people and they’d be healthier overall.
Did you know that you and I are in contact at this very moment? It’s not intimate contact, but we are indeed contacting each other in the present. Through the course of my day, I’m in contact with dozens of people or more without physically touching them.
If we were having this conversation in your home, and you removed your pants, then we’d be engaging in intimate contact.
Where did I say anything about going to a hotel room with someone?
The main thrust is that the danger to trans people comes from anti-trans bigots who actively want to hurt and harm trans people, and will do so if they find out someone is trans. Therefore it’s very reasonable that a trans person might be very, very careful with their trans identity, and choose to not reveal it except in very controlled circumstances. And this might include never revealing it at all to a stranger, whether an online future date or some other stranger, as well as not engaging in any intimate contact (which can include disrobing and/or accompanying a date to a hotel room). All this comes from what trans people have told me, or from what I’ve read from trans writers.
Here’s some more info about the danger of trans people being outed:
It is most kind of you people who are concerned for the welfare of transgender people and the bad things that might happen to them to issue your warnings and give your advice on how they can best keep themselves safe in a transphobic world. I’m sure they’re all quite appreciative.
They may, nevertheless, not take your advice, and if this is all about their safety it’s their call to make.
Now, you may think us cynical if we say we think your main interest lies not in the safety and welfare of transgender people on dates, but instead with a sense of entitlement, that you think you have a right to know whether or not someone is transgender before even so much as meeting for coffee. And I’d hate to be thought cynical. That would be a total bummer. So I thought I’d come right out and ask: if there were no issues involving the safety of transgender people, if they were magically safe from anything violent happening no matter what, is there some point at which you feel like you have a built-in right to know whether someone is transgender or not, for your sake, with no reference to their safety? At what point would that be? And what is it that you are being protected from by receiving this information at that point? Are there cases where bad things have happened to people who unknowingly went and had face to face meetings with transgender people without knowing beforehand that they were trans?
I’m fairly certain I didn’t say I expect sex on the first date. If anything, I expect the relationship to lead to sex. I don’t think I mentioned a time frame in which the sex has to happen. But if it’s not going to happen at some point, then yeah, I’m wasting my time.
And this is just made up. I don’t think undressing is intimate contact. CONTACT. It was right in the post. Here, I’ll quote it for you - “Undressing is not intimate contact” If I’m on the bed and a woman is undressing in the bathroom, that is NOT intimate contact.
You are absolutely right. Therefore, it’s better to tell someone trying to pick you up in a bar at the bar, instead of waiting until you are back at their place, alone.