No, it’s because these are movies that get broadcasted at 23pm on ARTE rather than at prime time on TF1, for the benefit of cinephiles who want a subtitled version with the original voices, while the general public wants a 2004 dubbed action movie. Probably the same for east-european or asian movies.
By the way, you’ve been in France for some time, if I’m not mistaken. How comes you’re suddenly asking so much questions about France, french language and habbits, etc…? Are you about to leave?
I have been here for a while, and this is my second time. Yet, it wasn’t until this semester, with the riots and the CPE, that I took it upon myself to read the French newspapers everyday. I read the Metro and 20 Minutes when I’m on the way to school, and I get the email version of *Le Monde *and Le Figaro. So, I’m basically playing catch-up. I’m trying to get some perspective at the SDMB on what I’m reading in the French press.
So, if it seems that I’m picking on France, I assure you I’m not. It’s just that France is the only foreign country I’ve lived in. In any case, I tend to find many things that any governments does to be absurd.
I am leaving Paris in July, and pretty soon you’ll see some questions about why people in Taiwan do so-and-so or why the government does this-and-that. I just want perspectives and opinions, because I certainly don’t want to form my opinions on things like that without putting it up against those of others.
It just seems odd that practicly every DVD release in the US has a French soundtrack when there are relativily few native speakers of French in the US compared to native Spanish speaking people. And it irks me that movie that stars a prominent hispanic actress in a hispanic role would not come with a spanish language soundtrack. Given the fact that the hispanic population in the US is quite large and spends a significant amount of money on such movies it may cross ones mind that the reason may actually be a prejudice against that population. I mean, how much does it actually cost to add another soundtrack?
I may start a pit thread on this later, not fired up enough just yet. 
I know English speakers like to point out how new words are being made in France to replace English loanwords, but this phenomenon is utilized just as well in other countries. For example, it’s interesting that while many scientific and technical words are almost identical in all Romance languages and loan-happy English, German language tends to have an original (usually long) word to describe these same concepts. These have been invented at some point. See television, which is the same in everywhere, except that Germans have Fernseher (far-seer), even though TV is also used.
However I wouldn’t know about the general tendencies of other states to protect their respective languages. Here in Finland we’ve pretty much given up, and follow whatever language is hip at the moment, currently it’s English. Even so, largely because of the uniqueness of Finnish, many foreign words simply don’t ‘sound right’ and become replaced by a Finnish invented word one way or another. This happened especially in the 1800s, and so when everyone else goes to restaurant, Finnish has ravintola (ravinto=nutrition), and when electricity is in some form of elektron in every European language, Finnish uses sähkö (sähistä=hiss/fizz, clever, isn’t it?). Perhaps for this I fail to see what is so peculiar in having “courriel” instead of “e-mail”, as Finns have been happily sending “sähköposti” for years, simply because “e-mail” didn’t sound good enough. I mean, what’s so sacred about English formed word like email, that everyone else should also use the same expression, no matter what their mother tongue?
Still other than foreign words often being swiftly replaced by Finnish ones (and the promotion of these finnicized words has nothing to do with the state, it’s the work of various linguistic enthusiasts), Finland doesn’t have any particular interest in language protection. Of course our two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, enjoy the benefits that come with having an official status, but that’s about it. There’s no limit how much foreign content a commercial TV or radio channel can broadcast, for example. It’s possible this could change, though, as in recent years many have started to see the hegemony of English as a threat towards small languages.
I remember reading maybe a year or two ago that several publishers (I think one of the major magazines, Spiegel or Stern was mentioned) were choosing to ignore the 1996 guidelines and revert to the old spellings. Is that still the case? How common are the new spellings vs old spellings?
Sure, why not? I mean, there is a rather large consensus in Quebec that Quebec is a “nation”. This, by the way, doesn’t imply that independence is necessary or even a good idea: it just means that in Canada today, there are multiple “nations” in the sense of peoples, each one having their own shared history, their own shared experience of the world, their own cultural references, in other words, their own culture.
Now, I’ve read enough posts by English-Canadians here to know that most of you don’t have the same vision of Canada. It seems to me that to you, Canada is more like a “multicultural nation”, that is, a single people with their shared experiences but some variation (linguistic and other) in their cultural characteristics. (And yes, some also see Canada as a monocultural Anglo-Saxon nation, or at least think that’s what it should be.) But I don’t find this satisfying. It doesn’t jibe with how I “feel” Canada, and I don’t think it accurately describes the country either. And I know that I’m not the only one to feel this way.
Now, maybe I’m just misunderstanding your view of Canada or something. If you want, I’d be willing to debate theories of Canada (and I’ll try to bring cites, right now I don’t have any), but I think we should do so in another thread.
Well, I guess it comes down to the Hispanic US population to start pressuring film companies to include a Spanish soundtrack of their movies. There are enough of them that it would certainly be wise for companies to do so. Spanish speakers must show that they want a soundtrack in their language (if they indeed do).
I’m not sure any of these cases are as strict as the french language laws, but there are numerous examples of small regional or indiginous languages being protected by law. Off the top of the head I’d say, Welsh, Basque, and Maori are examples of this.
I didn’t assume that, nor suspected it. Actually, you made sure to mention you weren’t doing so many times. So much so that since I’m the only french poster around here, it sometimes feel like you’re specifically telling me that no offense is intended.
I was just curious about the reasons of this sudden interest. And suspected it could be related to you leaving soon, since we tend to find stuff much more interesting when we don’t have access to it anymore.
As I’m on a tight schedule, all I can come up with now is a cite from Wikipedia on Bill 101. It says: “As suggested by the Supreme Court ruling, the current law specifies that commercial outdoor signs can be multilingual so long as French is markedly predominant.” There was a news story a few years ago about a sign on St. Laurent in Hebrew that was being targeted by l’Office de la langue française. I’m not sure where I got the twice as large from - I’ll have to look into that further.
The French government’s protectionism towards French has a dark underbelly: the rather strong repression of indigenous minority languages like Basque, Breton, and the various regional Romance languages.
And then you have the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language (RAE), with branches in every Spanish-speaking countries. They are the ultimate authority on Spanish and record the development of the language, but just as importantly, it creates, clarifies and changes the rules that govern the language. If you think that the French guard their language with jelousy then you need to check on the Spaniards too, they are the same, if not worse.
Nothing like Clint Eastwood dubbed in Spanish with a Spanish accent. Or Arnold Swat… Swaz… Swas… whatever.
Good. It’s just that when there’s a question about French/France, there’s often some inflamatory language regarding the country, which I don’t want to seem to be a part of. That’s why I always feel compelled to show that I’ve got my problems with certain things, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like France.
When I write this disclaimer, I am directing it to you, but also all the francophiles out there.
As this continues to veer completely into GD territory, it’s worth pointing out that by no definition under the sun is Quebec a “nation.” That’s doublespeak from seditionists who hope that if you chant something often enough it will become true. T’ain’t so in the real world.
As for Japanese, there are in fact regular announcements made by the national government regarding vocabulary that must be expressed in (non-katakana) Japanese. However, these regulations are only intended to cover official government documents (ministry reports, drafts of legislation, etc.), and the terms that appear on the lists are usually not ones that come up in everyday conversation. I think what happens is someone in the finance ministry reads The Economist, tosses a phonetic version written in katakana of a term he sees there in one of his reports, and then the parliamentary octegenarians end up wondering what the hell “disukureshonerii supendingu indekkusu” is supposed to mean.
Basically, none of these rules have any effect on businesses or everyday speech, nor are they intended to.
So the English convention of using a cobbled-together mix of ancient latin and greek meaning something like ‘see from far away’ makes sense, while using the exact same construction in your own language that you understand is odd? Norwegian has the same (fjernsyn) - it’s not just the Germans.
I think the reason the French catch so much flak* over this is that in addition to the usual affliction of nationalist politicians and bee-in-the-bonnet activists, which are the same the world over, they are saddled with the Academie Francaise. This not only comes up with such gems as ““un appareil de forage en mer” but adds an official imprimateur, which means that when everyone points and laughs it is at ‘France’ rather than some random bunch of language-purist nutjobs. I didn’t realise there was a spanish equivalent, and it makes me wonder how they have managed to keep such a low profile.
*Did you see what I did there? Maybe the unusual thing is not that the French are protective, but that English-speakers are so careless about what gets added to the vernacular. If you strip out the various borrowings from other languages, I’m not sure what’s left would be recogniseable as English…
Nothing is sacred about it and I don’t think anyone is saying that English is sacred. It’s just that English is just as happy to borrow words as it is to loan words. Foreign words and phrases are added to the English lexicon all the time.
I went to kindergarten as a child. I earned beaucoup dollars last year. My sister has a new beau. Rodeo stars are loco. When I was in the army sergeants, lieutenants, and colonels ordered me around all the time. I read manga and watch anime. My roommate is a figure otaku. I didn’t win the lottery, c’est la vie.
I disagree. Do you want me to start a GD thread?
Eurograff , you misunderstood, I was giving an example of how - despite govt. policies the French use the Engilish word when a French alternative exsists, heaven help us if we start saying which language is “better”!
slight hijiack
It’s “Gyuunyu” (two u’s or a line above the first u).
“Amerika” --> “Beikoku” (“Rice Country”, or more aptly, “Wheat Country”, given our “amber waves of grain”)
Kinda confusing, since the Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) phrase for America is “Mei-gwo / Mei-gwok”, which means “Beautiful Country”.
Japanese has adopted many loan words to the point where native speakers aren’t sure of their origins (referencing a post where a native Japanese insists that “pinku” is the native Japanese word for pink). Usually (although not always) these words are written in katakana:
hocchikissu (I’m not sure I got the katana right for this one) - stapler (from the Hotchkiss Fastener, a.k.a. Hotchkiss Stapler, before Swingline cornered the stapler market)
pan - bread, from the Portuguese word. ‘Pan’ is probably the root word for bread or bun in other languages (Chinese “beng”, Vietnamese “banh”)
manshion - house, from the word “mansion”. Japanese live in such tight spaces that they would call anything bigger than a two-bedroom house a “manshion”