A cycle which you think they should perpetuate? Isn’t that begging the question?
That is one of the most offensive ideas that I have ever read. It is this attitude, as much as anything else, that helps keep blacks from succeeding. The idea that a man who pursues his career and pursues his success in any manner he deems fit is a sell out or a Tom will do as much to prevent success as any *other *racial discrimination. And believe me, it is indeed discrimination to say that because a man is black he may not pursue his chosen career in a specific manner. It is discrimination to say that because a man is black he should not align himself with certain beliefs. I have recently read in another thread that the republicans are the white man’s party. Well they are if black people are made to feel that they are selling out for joining. How will the party *ever *represent the black man if black are discouraged from joing - and not discouraged by the party but by their own people?
And to imply, no more than imply, that Colin Powel did not get his success for any other reason than because he is black is an out and out prejudiced act. As so often happens with this kind of prejudice, there is no way to win. If there were no blacks in the current administration they would be lambasted for being anti-black. But the blacks that are given key posts are called Toms and Sell Outs and it is said that they would not have earned their post except for the color of their skin. And the administration is lambasted for having tokens.
Men and women should be allowed to pursue their ideals regardless of their skin color, anything less is bigoted.
As much as I more or less agree with the rest of your post, this is innacurate. The implication was that Powell and/or Condi were both beneficiaries of some sort of affirmative action-- ie, being Black helped, but wasn’t the sole reason.
Then you must not read very often. The rest of this is garbage. My attitude doesn’t keep other people from succeeding. It doesn’t even prevent others from becoming republicans. Stop spouting nonsense.
More useless rhetoric. Should gay people be against gay marriage? There are plenty of examples of people who should not be on a side of an issue because it is not beneficially to their race, ethnicity, creed, etc.
The republican party will gain more blacks when they start embracing an agenda that is beneficial to black people, and not exploiting blacks.
First, you are factually wrong about Colin Powell. The rest of your post is just more nonsense and speculation.
Right, because it wasn’t until blacks voted in blocks that we were taken for granted by politicians. The way we vote had little to do with that, and the social dynamics didn’t change because of it. Did you ever wonder why we do vote in blocks? It’s not because we think in unison, its because one party has been far more inclusive and far less hostile than that other. It was, and still is, the logical choice (between the two).
The black people on the bottom and the young kids who are future Colin Powell’s are helped by that. If the Republican party got it way, many of the programs that black people feel are helpful to other black people would be gone. That makes it harder for the next leaders to fulfill their potential.
You mean, many programs that **Democratic **Black people think are beneficial. Do you claim that no case can be made against Affirmative Action? That it’s a scientific fact that AA is the best way to go? And even if it DID benefit Black people, don’t you think there’s a case to be made that it’s inherently undemocratic (little “d”)? Do you deny that the other side has any case to be made? If not, why open a deate?
Well argued. I am stunned by your logic. Let me try: Your entire post is nonsense and speculation. WOW. That feels so good. Not having to make an argument is so freeing.
I maintain that men and women should be allowed to pursue their ideals regardless of their skin color, anything less is bigoted.
Liberals want to help reduce the poverty which has pervaded the black community for many generations. They feel an increase in government help will do that.
If Conservatives are against those plans, it’s obvious it’s because they are racist. Why else would you be against the Liberals’ plan to help the black community?
And for those Liberals who don’t realize how absurd the above statement is, let me explain it to you. Conservatives want to help the poor and disenfranchised in this country with alternative plans to the Liberals’. It’s not that the intentions are different, just the plans. And in my opinion, the socialism route has not succeeded for the many decades that it has been tried. A more conservative ideal of self-reliance would be more successful.
If you want historical proof of which party is the party of racists, look up which party was most against civil rights back in the 1960s, which party now has a Senator who was in the KKK, which party is against allowing poor black inner city kids into rich white private schools with vouchers, which party is for keeping the races separated by keeping one of them dependent on welfare and in the ghetto, etc.
-d
While the hostility of Republicans to blacks is well documented - Nixon’s freely expressed hatred and contempt, Eisenhower’s freely expressed hatred and contempt: Asking, in reference to West Point academy, “How many niggers are there? Are they staying out of trouble?” The Southern strategy, Reagan’s opposition to Civil Rights laws, etc. - it doesn’t neccesarily follow that the Democrats are black America’s friends.
Education is the single greatest factor in helping black Americans escape poverty and defend their interests in the politcal and econmic spheres. Democrat controlled, black controlled school systems have been failing black children for a generation, and the Democrats have typically been too afraid of the teachers unions to make the neccessary reforms.
Unlimited immigration of unskilled Third Worlders, especially Mexicans, has been an unqualified disaster for working class black Americans. Wages for low skilled jobs have been drastically undercut, many employers refuse to hire black Americans at all in favor of illegals, poor neighborhoods and the schools in them are often overcrowded, scarce public education funds are used up by bilingual and foreign language instruction. Not only have the Democrats failed to address these issues, they’ve often been cheerleaders for more immigration.
One of the positions commonly taken by right wing blacks, people like Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, the aforementioned JR Brown, is that the liberal policies in the criminal justice system have hamstrung the police and the courts, making it much more likely that working class black Americans are at the mercy of criminals who’ve been allowed to roam the streets or turned loose too early. More black Americans than you might think support the death penalty, partly because black people are much more likely to be murdered (by black criminals) than the upper middle class white people who typically oppose capital punishment.
I’m not claiming that the Democrats aren’t the right choice, especially the more moderate Dems like Bill Clinton, but I think there are good, principled reasons why black people join the Republicans.
When did anyone say that? Way to argue something nobody said.
Plenty of people on both sides don’t really want to help the poor. Calling the ways our country has tried to do that socialism is inflammatory. I don’t really want to debate policy because that would take us too far from the crux of the debate.
What a low move. Byrd was in the Klan in the early 1940’s and has since apologized and worked toward making up for his mistake. I’m surprised you didn’t call Kennedy a murderer.
Also, whatever your feelings are about vouchers, they will not allow poor black people to attend rich white private schools. Under any system, the vouchers wouldn’t cover the costs of attending a prestigious private school, nor would it guarantee acceptance in a** private ** institution. You should know better than that.
Crime has been going down for a while, and both parties have had a part in that. I don’t get why you blame liberals.
There are plenty of principled reasons to join the Republican party. I’m not saying black republicans are irrational or bad people, just that they are not usually looking out for the interests of the black community. It is a perfectly acceptable choice, but I think the choice makes you a sell-out in some ways.
My feelings are mixed when it comes to Back Conservatives. I don’t just mean the ones mentioned, I see it in my own community too. Calling them sell-outs is in effect what was done to me when I was a little smart boy “acting white” because I liked school. That said; I feel there is often a disconnection between the different classes of black in this society; I’ll come back to his latter.
Black conservatism; in matters of social policy is dictated by the churches we attend. Larry Elders being a black minister is an example of this thinking in action. Black conservatism in matters of economic policy is generally dictated by acquired wealth (think Charles Barkley). I would have real problems deciding myself that these people are selling out, as these positions are arrived at by genuine upbringing or self-preservation.
I do however think both positions are a little like throwing out the baby with the bath water when it comes to the issues facing “most” black people. The issues we face tend to be a bit more complex when it comes to matters that concern again “most” of us. Can I condemn either position? No, I’m a liberal democrat because I believe society should have safety nets to protect the most vulnerable. I’m also not religious so I tend to view people as people, rather that by a moral code dictated by an outside means. Do I arrive at that position in a vacuum? No, like Larry Elders I’ve arrived at that conclusion based on my own experiences as a poor black kid.
Now at the ripe old age of 37 I’m still a democrat, but it’s because I genuinely believe that the democrats are looking out for the little guy more that the big guy and I’m willing to tax myself accordingly. But I really can’t fault someone for not feeling the same way as I do. Nor am I willing to believe that personal responsibility covers any situation, I know better, but not everyone does.
Where I find the disconnect between the different classes of blacks, is what I refer to the “I did it” way of thinking. Everybody heard the old “when I was a kid I walked to school in a foot of snow, uphill… A lot of people romanticize the past in ways both detrimental and decidedly self-serving. That’s great in matters of self-esteem, but not so much if you are indeed applying your experience as a one size fits all method of policy.
Did you yourself say that Republicans don’t really represent the interests of most black people? Or gays or Latinos? Didn’t Evil Captor say “white racist base” without any rebuke from you or any other liberal?
The assumption that Republicans are the party of racist white people was put in your mind by the Democrat masters who want you to never leave the plantation. They only do that so their policies will be enacted, not for any goals of “inclusiveness” and “warm feelings” for minorities… they all know that the idea of race is pure bogus anyways.
But which side has a vested interest in keeping their constituencies poor and angry at “the man”? Doesn’t that make you at least suspicious that there is a better way?
Calling and increase in government spending on poor minorities “socialism” is a nice way of putting it. How about Communism, Welfare State, Cradle to Grave Nanny State? It burns my buttons when leftists cheat to get their policies enacted by calling their opponents “racists”. We conservatives don’t want the USA to fall into the horrors of Communism experienced by the USSR, China, or Cambodia… nor do we want the anemic economy of socialistic Europe. Such things should have nothing to do with ancestry, but leftist race-baiters twist every issue into a battle between white Republicans and minority Democrats.
I would have cherry-picked Ted Kennedy’s drowning of his girlfriend if she had been a member of a racial minority. 
But even the Kennedy family’s historically bad treatment of women is overlooked… they are Democrats who have the “correct policies” on abortion. :rolleyes: Just like how actual racist Democrats can get away with using the “n” word because they have the “correct policies” on Affirmative Action and such.
-d
**
You don’t mid me anserwing for brickbacon do you? Good well let’s have at it…
**
The notion that race is bogue is of course true, the notion that black people are treated differently because of their ‘percieved’ race is without question. Blacks are treated diefferently by the CJS, Housing Opportunities, job hiring (believe it or not based on whether is sounds like a black name or not) is indisputable.
Not in anyway whatsovever, Please elucidiate the Republican plan to hel minorities out of poverty.
**
Ok, please tell me the way that republicans have that doesn’t in effect lead to more crime againat black americans. Cut off the safety nets and lets just see who gets victimized by poor blacks looking to get food in the stomachs of black kids. I have a feeling it won’t be white people in thier gated communities.
I would have cherry-picked Ted Kennedy’s drowning of his girlfriend if she had been a member of a racial minority.
But even the Kennedy family’s historically bad treatment of women is overlooked… they are Democrats who have the “correct policies” on abortion. :rolleyes: Just like how actual racist Democrats can get away with using the “n” word because they have the “correct policies” on Affirmative Action and such.
-d
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Sorry for the screwed up coding in the last post.
It’s a question of priorities. Sometimes I’m confused as to how black people (and gays too) can vote Republican or be Republicans, but it’s a question of what issues they think are most important, who they trust, etc. Black Republicans are not Uncle Toms.
I think there was a time when the notion of representing the black community made sense — back in 1968 or so, when blacks were indeed collectively fighting for their rights. But forty years later, there is a large black middle class, and an impressive black upper economic class. As Charles Barkely … pause for jokes to die down … has observed, today’s poor are all colors. Poor whites in Appalachia have no more political clout than poor blacks in the Bronx. It no longer makes sense to talk about representation of the black community. They’re not the Borg anymore.
Dunno, if we assume that most black voters vote Democrat is because (even though their personal value set more closely follows the Republican as mentioned by Belowjob2.0) the government will give them money to support themselves, while as the Republicans will leave them to fend for themselves–it seems difficult to say that it is the Republican blacks who are selling out.
As to whether or not the Republican party cares about black issues–probably not as they wouldn’t view there as being any black issues. There might be a lot of poor black individuals, but that would be an individual issue not a racial one–and probably something best fixed with firmer education and local black leaders promoting individual worth and planning ahead.
Blacks are still fighting for their rights in addition to equal access and treatment. That’s why we should look out for our collective interests.
Also, I think some of you may be under the misunderstanding that Charles Barkley is a republican, he is not.
That’s a completely false assumption.
Of course there are black issues. I don’t think either party denies that.
Which rights are denied to Blacks, as a group, these days?
I’m not sure what you mean by “equal access and treatment.”