Are Box Office receipts really a good guide for movie popularity?

I don’t go to most movies on opening weekend, and I have never known anyone who makes the effort to do so.

That’s not to say I have never seen a movie on opening weekend, but in those cases it’s just circumstance. I am willing to wait a few weeks, whichever is convenient.

But Hollywood relies on opening weekend takings as it’s singular guide to popularity, so I suppose it’s an ingrained part of the movie-going culture there to go see an event film as soon as possible. My assumption is that it’s an accurate judge, otherwise why would the marketers persist in using it as such?

But what of DVD sales. A DVD is more expensive, but it allows people to watch a film over and over again, to be a part of your ‘collection’, so if people are willing to pay for a DVD, isn’t that a more accurate guide to a film’s true appeal and popularity? It’s not just a weekend’s bit of meaningless entertainment to pass the time, it’s now something to treasure and enjoy repeatedly.

Do you think Box Office receipts will be soon superceded by DVD sales as a true guide for popularity of a movie, its stars, its director, its genre? Will Hollywood start to follow that new lead?

I think the vast majority of people, like myself, still rent DVD’s instead of buy them. Thus DVD sales wouldn’t be much of an indication.

But to get to your question, opening box office is important for many reasons. For major Hollywood films, it is an early indication of popularity and number-crunchers will be able to predict the final gross of the film. This doesn’t work all that well for small independent films (My Big Fat Greek Wedding for instance) but generally, box office on a normal opening weekend is a pretty solid barometer.

Some films open huge, and then drop huge in the second weekend (Hulk for example) so the studio knows they have a flop and had better start some creative marketing - either in foreign markets or with DVD/video strategy.

Some films open OK - but have legs and will stay in the top ten for a long time (Mystic River for example) and the studio knows they will be profitable over the long run.

For instance, the new Matrix film opened huge, and then took a pretty dismal drop in the second weekend. This was not good news for IMAX, as they now have a big investment in a film that doesn’t seem to have good word of mouth. My guess is they are now regretting having invested all that money in an IMAX version of the film, but - too late now.

Yeah, maybe the second weekends gross is a better mark of popularity.
Then again you have some films like say Office Space that become ‘cult’ films and are very popular even though it did not have great box office.

Wasn’t there some movie that was a sequal to a long ago cult flim that did really well? Maybe it’s my fever talking but I seem to recall that from this years slate.

Hollywood doesn’t ignore video sales and rentals. Video sales now make up 50% of a movie’s revenue stream, so you can be sure that there are hordes of little studio functionaries devoted to tracking DVD sales figures. (And, by the way, Hollywood most certainly looks at more than the first weekend of a movie’s theatrical run.)

But why don’t you see more emphasis on video sales figures in the media? Because usually video sales figures just tell you what you already know: popular movies are popular, unpopular movies are not. :slight_smile: The fact that Pirates of the Carribean and Finding Nemo made a mint in DVD sales the last few weeks isn’t all that interesting, because everyone already knows PoC and FN made a mint in theaters last summer.

Movies that did well in theaters do well on DVD, and in general movies that flopped in theaters flop on DVD as well. There are exceptions–Austin Powers didn’t really become a phenomenon until it was released on video–but they’re very rare. So the really interesting news–is it a flop or a hit?–happens during the theatrical release, not during the video release.

But that’s still going by the idea that the initial short period after release is what it is judged on, when really you need word-of-mouth and other longer term effects to really kick in.

I just think the act of buying a more expensive item like a DVD shows true popularity, rather than the marketing buzz causing a riot on opening weekend.

Box office is a pretty good guide to popularity of a film (assuming it’s adjusted for inflation, of course). If, on a weekend, one film makes $50 milllion and another makes $25 million, it’s a sign that the $50M film had twice as many people seeing it. It’s not 100% accurate – all tickets in an area may not be the same – but the differences tend to cancel out.

I’d expect that DVD sales and rentals pretty much follow the popularity in theaters. It’s highly unlikely that a film will tank at the box office but be a best selling DVD.

This may be a bit of a hijack, but why is that interesting news? I don’t have any money invested in movie studios, so I have no stake in whether a film is a success or not. I don’t attend movies just because I find out that a lot of other people are going.

I understand why the studios get the information out (publicity). I can sort of understand why every news show covers this on Monday morning (no research needed, and they can talk about it like it’s a horse race). No one’s ever told me why any of the rest of us should care.

A lot of the Box Office thing is also marketing. A studio wants to go “Hey look! Every one else is going to this movie. If you don’t too then your a bit of a looser.” Or words to that effect.

Theatrical receipts and video rentals do diverge to some degree, although there’s a general correlation and it’s rare that a hit won’t rent or sell well, sometimes odd films will have strong rental performances. To pick two films that did this, The Replacements and Don’t Say a Word both far exceeded their theatrical take in video rentals (though these revenues don’t go to the studios exactly, they’re a decent indicator). Neither of these films is really remarkable but both had a ‘see it on video quality’ that made them popular. Don’t Say a Word in fact rented out to the tune of almost $100 million, which made it the number two rental of 2001.

DVD sales are becoming more and more important to a film’s success, though the studios are keeping this tight to their chests unless there’s a significant record broken like with Finding Nemo.

Reality Chuck, the adjusted for inflation thing is flawed, as in my opinion it only works over short periods. You can’t compare, say Gone With the Wind, which has had multiple releases, didn’t have TV or video to compete with in its initial run and came from a time when people went to the movies as a matter of course far more often than we do even now. even figures from the 80s don’t compare well directly anymore. They’re telling as to how patterns have changed, but as a measure of popularity or how they’d fare released as originals today? It doesn’t fly. No one waited for E.T. on video because only a small number of people shlled out the $600 for VCR and then had to wait two years for it to come out (it may have even been longer, IIRC). Plus you still had the rental-pricing on videos where many cost upwards of $100.

Oh, and I wouldn’t say that Hollywood looks at only the opening weekend for popularity, though they do look at that for what sells. In their eyes, quality is a crapshoot, so it’s best to make a bunch of movies that fit a proven scheme, as judged by what’s opened well in the past. It’s a very reactive business.

But if you are a movie fan, you do have a stake in the success of a film. Studios decide what films to produce, distribute, and promote based on what was successful in the past. If a film you loved is a box office bomb, the studio and distributor are less likely to invest more money in that type of film or in that filmmaker in the future.

Nothing is perfect, of course, and in order to compare apples with apples, you should only consider the first run. However, adjusting for inflation does remove the increase in ticket prices as a factor. If a film sells a million tickets at $2 each, it’s doing better than another film that sells 300,000 tickets at $4 each, even though it made less money overall.

As for the difference in other factors, they’re really pretty much a wash. Anything you compare over time is going to reflect social changes over that time. But the money is a clear measure of the popularity when they came out (it has nothing to do with how they’d fare if released as originals today; that’s pure speculation and impossible to quantify).

The fact remains that the box office shows the number of people who went to see the film when it was first released. That’s as good a guide to the film’s popularity as you’re going to get.

It’s mostly bragging rights for the Studio’s film that is out. The next wave of promotional ads can say, “this film was the number 1 film in the country”, so maybe more people will plunk down more money to see it, driving the revenues up.

But that doesn’t mean the film is any good, just alot of people were duped in seeing it Opening Weekend.

The same thing can be said for Golden Globe or Oscar Nominations, just another piece of promotion to get more people to see the film by the Studio.

Personally, I think box office figures are always a little misleading because of the significant discrepancies in ticket prices in different parts of the country and the phenomenon of repeat viewing. I personally think that the box office of, say, Titanic, was inflated because there were a fair number of repeat viewers for that. (I think it was the same six thirteen year old girls in New Jersey who saw Titanic several million times, but that’s just a theory.)

Is there (m)any instances of movies that did good in the theatre bit didn’t do well on video/DVD? Beacuse I can think of plenty of movies which I thought were OK, but woth the $20/shelf space to buy on DVD.

A friend of mine use to but lots of DVDs to watch the extras untill he relized he could just rent them…

Brian

^^ but NOT worth the …

I think they should announce box-office figures for the number of viewings of a movie, instead of the the ticket price. As mentioned earlier, prices can vary from theatre to theatre and region to region. Movies that stay in theatre for longer times may have deceptively small box-office grosses if tickets initally cost $10, but then it’s still in smaller theatres several months later for $4. And this probably isn’t only due to repeat-viewings by a few people - but also to other people who might not have gone to see it if it hadn’t been in theatres so long.

Also, I was going to add, in my experience, rising ticket prices don’t necessarily correlate closely with inflation.

The prices I spent on tickets only two years ago was never more than $9 (CND), and was usually $6.50-$7.50 for matinees and cheaper shows. But I moved two years ago (just to another area in the same city), and the most convenient theatre for me is now a new huge Giganto-Monstro-Plex[sup]TM[/sup] that costs at least $10.50 for a matinee, and $14 for an evening show.

I’m spending 1/3 more for tickets than I did a short time ago. So I don’t put much stock in the box-office figures (as a guide to which movie is a must-see). I’m much more likely to look a reviews that I trust.

Seems to me you’re getting caught up in a misunderstanding between “news” and actual business.

First of all, recall that, as we’ve discussed here a couple of times, the studio’s box-office revenue drops over the course of a film’s theatrical run on a sliding scale, with the exhibitor taking a larger cut in each succeeding week, so it makes some sense to pay more attention to the first couple of weekends than to the long-term run. Based on the way the revenue sharing changes, trying to pin a vague term like “popularity” to a movie is in the interest of neither the studio (distributor) or cinema owner (exhibitor). It’s all about profitability; nothing else is worth tracking.

Further, and perhaps more importantly for this discussion box office performance is immediate. On Sunday night, the studios can release estimated weekend performance of their films to a grateful news media hungry for any content they can use to fill up a minute or two on the endless treadmills of their newscasts. This opening-weekend performance is important for estimating a movie’s ultimate profitability, as noted above, and there are volumes and volumes of actuarial-style formulas and statistics to extrapolate probable performance from the first three or five days (which includes an increase or decrease from Friday to Sunday, as an early barometer of word-of-mouth), but it’s hardly the only measure used by the studios.

However, again, it is the immediate one and thus it gets the big play for the public. A movie’s long-term profitability (“popularity,” again, is too ambiguous a term to warrant much currency in the CPAs’ logbooks), as discussed already in the thread, has much more to do with video sales, cable and broadcast premieres and repeats, ancillary revenue (video games, t-shirts, etc.), and the like, than simply the opening weekend, but that sort of stuff is too boring, complicated, and drawn out to make the news. Really, think about why CNN would want to include an item like this: “As of Tuesday, April 24, Kevin Costner’s Waterworld is now in the black. The film’s production cost of $184M and marketing outlay of $58M <note: all figures hypothetical> were offset by initial box-office earnings of $62.3M over its eleven-week run, and $49.8M in home-video sales, for a net loss after twelve months of $121M. This shortfall has since been made up by continued home-video performance, including an eight-year rental volume that earned $47M for the studio, and broadcast repeats in 1998, 1999, and 2001…” and so on, and so on, and so on. Who really cares, except the actual movie house?

Besides, studios really don’t want it publicly known when a movie enters into the black, because they’ve developed complicated accounting processes that conceal a film’s true earnings over the long term. As of a year and a half ago, the global blockbuster Men in Black was still being reported as being in the red by its studio, based on mind-numbing algorithms about Brazilian advertising and Asian distribution networks and amortized intra-organizational chargebacks and all sorts of other silliness. They’re much happier if the general population focuses on the weekend box office, even though it provides an incomplete picture, because it lets them conduct their actual business in relative secrecy.

So, in summation, I’d say that while the original question isn’t exactly meaningless, it does depend on misconceptions about the Hollywood business model that are understandable based on the public face offered by the industry. DVD sales are very important and will continue to get more important, but trying to make a news story out of a movie’s “popularity” is next to impossible, so you won’t see it discussed. Don’t conclude from that, however, that measures of profitability are limited only to what’s mentioned on Fox News Entertainment Minute.

What Cervaise said. With this addendum: it has not always been so, and will likely not always be thus.

Over the course of the 1970s, film release patterns changed from platform releases (films playing in a few markets at a time, with not many copies in circulation) to front-loaded release patterns (many copies of the film opening across the country at one time). Several films are famous for having “invented” the blockbuster and inspiring this change – The Godfather, Jaws and Star Wars, in particular, which demonstrated to studios that people would line up around the block to see a movie, and would go see it again and again and again.

The advantages of a platform release, financially speaking: not a lot of up-front costs, and a greater opportunity for films to find their audience and build up word of mouth.

The advantages of shooting for blockbusters: wads and wads of cash in your coffers right up front.

Phenomena like foreign film rights, broadcast rights and video and DVD sales added revenue streams. And one of the best advertisements a studio can make for the DVD release is a big box office performance.

And getting back to the OP: popularity is hard to define. More people saw more movies back in the 1930s and 1940s, for example, so a popular movie then reached a greater percentage of the US population. A greater number of people might see today’s most popular films, though. And there’s a greater emphasis now on revisiting favorite films and owning stuff related to them.

So by popular, do you mean “more people saw it” or “more people loved it”? The former is hard to calculate, but the latter is probably impossible.