Are comics sexist? Or just sexy?

[Amok]

@Miller

I’m not sure where you’re getting “obligation” from. Where has anyone suggested that comic companies be forced to de-sexify their superheroines? Comic companies are free to do whatever they want, and the rest of us are free to buy or not buy as we see fit. I don’t see anyone complaining about this basic setup.

No one has suggested that, say, the government step in and force gender equality in super hero comics, certainly. But when, for instance, Menocchio says “It’s not that women are drawn unrealistically, it’s that, unlike the males, they’re drawn unrealistically sexy, and nothing but. If this was the rare exception, it wouldn’t be a problem. But as a huge trend it’s not okay.” that suggests (to me) that he feels comic companies shouldn’t be doing this. That they should voluntarily de-sexualized their comics because it’s the right thing to do for society. But maybe I’ve misinterpreted his point.

But as to why we - both readers and publishers - should care, is the damage that this is doing to the comics themselves. These stripper heroines attract a certain demographic, but what about the demographic they’re driving away? How many women are going to pick up a comic book for the first time, if this is what she sees on the cover? Worse, how many women writers and artists are going to pass on working in comics if that’s the image they have of the medium? (And yes, I’m aware that that cover was painted by a woman. Doesn’t change my point.) How many parents are going to see stuff like that, and decide to keep their kids away from comic books?

I have no doubt that comics drive away some readers based upon their imagery of women. The question as to how many readers they would gain if they gave that up though is hard to answer. Marvel and DC aren’t oblivious to fact that they don’t sell many comics to women, and I’m sure they’d like to sell more (and they’ve tried to, albeit in some half-hearted ways). The problem is how to go from here to there without going bankrupt in the process.

I mean, let’s say DC fired all their current artists and writers today, and tomorrow brought in new ones that would write women stronger and and draw them in less sexualized ways. Is that going to result in a lot of women rushing out and buying their books? There’s no way to know for sure, but I doubt it. Most women probably wouldn’t know there even had been a change, but they’d still have their perceptions of comics as something that only (typically somewhat nerdy) guys read. But DC’s current readership would be well aware of the change, and probably wouldn’t appreciate it. Comics have long been seen as being for kids (since the start of the Silver Age, really, when they were a lot more sexist, though not nearly as sexualized) and guys. None of that will change over night, so the question is, how do you bring in new and different readers without alienating your current ones?

There have been recent books that have been female friendly. Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane is a great teen romance story, with no T&A. Birds of Prey does have some, by virtue of using DC’s established super heroines, but it’s (currently) both written and drawn by women and tends to minimize the T&A for strong female superheros kicking ass. Neither of those books are tearing up the sales charts, last I checked. Super hero comic books from the main publishers that are women friendly just don’t seem to sell particularly well now (some of them sell well enough to get buy, and continue publishing, but they’re not doing gang busters or anything). Maybe that’s a failure of marketing with comic companies unable to reach women who would be interested in buying the books, maybe there’s just not that many women who would be interested in buying them period, or maybe the books aren’t as women friendly as I think they are, I don’t know. But what they’ve done so far hasn’t worked very well, so it’d be a bit silly to ditch what is selling for them currently in the hope that what hasn’t sold well for them will start to.

Comic books are still a ghetto. For the most part, they all appeal to the same insular, aging demographic. We need more people, of different ages, from different backgrounds, reading and making comics. Not for the health of society, but for the health - both economic and artistic - of the medium itself.

Comic books are certainly a ghetto, but the health of the industry is a secondary concern to me after my enjoyment as a reader. If they can grow the business while still putting out material I enjoy, then that’s cool, but if the only way to appeal to more readers is to dump what I like, well, then that doesn’t do much for me, you know?

That’s not really a fair comparison, though, because romance novels are such a small section of the total novel market. Well, not exactly “small,” but they don’t dominate it in the way superheroes dominate the American comic market.

True, but I’m not sure that’s the fault of super hero comics. Should super hero comics have to change their ways because romance, western and horror comics stopped selling in the 70s?

I mean, I’m a dude, and I like a good love story now and then. I’m not a reader of modern romance novels, but one of my favorite books is Pride and Prejudice. Another is Of Human Bondage, which I wouldn’t characterize as a love story, really, but does include a lot about love and relationships in it, and the protagonist is male. If the book industry published romance stories that were more male friendly, I might pick up one now and again. Should I start a blog advocating that?

ETA: Oh, and super hero comics no longer dominate the American comic market, really, if by that you mean ‘comics sold in America’ rather than ‘comics made in America’. DC and Marvel dominate the monthly market, but manga collections are doing very well in book stores. My local Borders has something like 8 shelves for manga, 2 for super hero trades, and 1 for other American stuff (non-superhero stuff from Vertigo, indies, and everything else).

[Evil_Captor]

Links to the Bingo Card, which is a list of common defenses of “sexism” in comics and refutations thereof:

http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4

Point 1:

Just read manga like the rest of the girls.

This is a weak argument and the BINGO card author demolishes it easily. I’d say strawman, but I bet this argument shows up on a lot of message boards so it’s not really a strawman.

Something stronger along these lines would be: "If you want to influence comic book publishers, you’re going to have to buy their comics. So long as 90 percent of the comic book buying demographic is male, that’s whose tastes will be catered to. Why would publishers want to risk blowing off their primary customer base for a group that mostly stands on the sidelines and complains?

We’ll see if this argument shows up later. I’m taking them as I find them.

[cmkeller]

Evil Captor:

So long as 90 percent of the comic book buying demographic is male, that’s whose tastes will be catered to. Why would publishers want to risk blowing off their primary customer base for a group that mostly stands on the sidelines and complains?

Interesting argument. Were comic book sales higher or lower now, or in the 60’s when artists like Swan, Infantino and Kane were drawing women much more realistically-proportioned and clothed than today’s artists? And were fewer males buying the comics then?

[Evil_Captor]

The Bingo Card point 2
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4

You’re only jealous because you don’t look like that.

Another very weak argument, a mean-spirited argumentum ad hominem that the Bingo Card author dispenses with easily. I suspect that it also shows up on a lot of message boards, which is why it was included. I’m not going to bother defending such dreck, since I disagree with it.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

Let’s see. Publishers market comics that are total turn-offs to women, but women should buy them in order to influence publishers. That doesn’t even rise to the level of a strawman argument.

The reality is that publishers deliberately ignore and insult the potential female readership by pandering to the worst impulses of the male readership. You seem to have given up on justifying the assertion in your OP that comics aren’t sexist for Amok’s argument that comics are sexist but that’s okay because that’s what the audience wants. Convenient.

Forget that Amok’s argument is completely circular. It also implies, well, pretty much states in so many words, that change is not possible. Obviously not true. The comics industry has changed its image many times in the past. All it has to do is want to. Could it be done without destroying the current audience? I say it probably could. Not overnight, of course: even the Marvel “revolution” took years to come to pass. But as others have pointed out, the industry has already changed the image of females from helpless waifs needing to be perpetually rescued and weakened female versions of male heroes for characters who are stronger and more independent. That evolution has been fully accepted. Why couldn’t that trend continue with the costumes and the attitudes toned down? Comic books have been losing circulation for years. A change to attract a wider audience would be more likely to be beneficial in the long run than harmful.

BTW, romance is the hottest publishing genre around. It has more than 50% of the mass market paperback audience. It dominates genre publishing the way superheroes dominate comic book publishing.

[Evil_Captor]

The Bingo Card point 3
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4

So you want comics full of ugly fat chicks?

Once again, a weak argument that probably shows up on message boards a lot. However, this argument does have a germ of logic buried in it. It would be better if it were phrase: “I like hot, voluptuous superheroines, why do you have the right to tell me what I should want to see in my comics? Especially as I am the one paying the way for the comics publishers?” This argument would be much harder to handle.

[Amok]

@cmkeller

Evil Captor:

Interesting argument. Were comic book sales higher or lower now, or in the 60’s when artists like Swan, Infantino and Kane were drawing women much more realistically-proportioned and clothed than today’s artists? And were fewer males buying the comics then?

Sales were much higher then. Sales now are a fraction of what they were in the 60s. OTOH, the readership was younger then. And while comics were much less overtly sexual in how they depicted women, they were also a lot more sexist in other ways, so I’m not sure things were any better for women readers of super hero comics then.

@Exapno Mapcase

Forget that Amok’s argument is completely circular. It also implies, well, pretty much states in so many words, that change is not possible. Obviously not true.

Change is certainly possible, in the long run. If the companies truly want to change. I’m not sure that they do (right now I think they want half-hearted change, basically they want to have their cake and eat it too… they want to put out some books that appeal to women, while still putting out their normal fare most of the time). Or that they have a moral obligation to do so. But if they change (and I’m sure they will eventually, I’m just not sure in what way) it will probably be to match their readership. Comics have gotten less sexist as society has gotten less sexist. If society continues on that road, then comics probably will too.

[Taber]

@Exapno Mapcase

Let’s see. Publishers market comics that are total turn-offs to women, but women should buy them in order to influence publishers. That doesn’t even rise to the level of a strawman argument.

I presume he was implying they should buy the ones that aren’t total turnoffs, to encourage the production of more. After all, comics aren’t going to give up selling to the market that they know how to sell to if the people who want them to switch don’t buy the new product.

Also, strawman? That argument doesn’t bear any resemblance to a strawman argument. If you really want to see a strawman argument, check out that bingo card.

[Miller]

@Amok

I have no doubt that comics drive away some readers based upon their imagery of women. The question as to how many readers they would gain if they gave that up though is hard to answer. Marvel and DC aren’t oblivious to fact that they don’t sell many comics to women, and I’m sure they’d like to sell more (and they’ve tried to, albeit in some half-hearted ways). The problem is how to go from here to there without going bankrupt in the process.

I mean, let’s say DC fired all their current artists and writers today, and tomorrow brought in new ones that would write women stronger and and draw them in less sexualized ways. Is that going to result in a lot of women rushing out and buying their books? There’s no way to know for sure, but I doubt it. Most women probably wouldn’t know there even had been a change, but they’d still have their perceptions of comics as something that only (typically somewhat nerdy) guys read. But DC’s current readership would be well aware of the change, and probably wouldn’t appreciate it. Comics have long been seen as being for kids (since the start of the Silver Age, really, when they were a lot more sexist, though not nearly as sexualized) and guys. None of that will change over night, so the question is, how do you bring in new and different readers without alienating your current ones?

There have been recent books that have been female friendly. Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane is a great teen romance story, with no T&A. Birds of Prey does have some, by virtue of using DC’s established super heroines, but it’s (currently) both written and drawn by women and tends to minimize the T&A for strong female superheros kicking ass. Neither of those books are tearing up the sales charts, last I checked. Super hero comic books from the main publishers that are women friendly just don’t seem to sell particularly well now (some of them sell well enough to get buy, and continue publishing, but they’re not doing gang busters or anything). Maybe that’s a failure of marketing with comic companies unable to reach women who would be interested in buying the books, maybe there’s just not that many women who would be interested in buying them period, or maybe the books aren’t as women friendly as I think they are, I don’t know. But what they’ve done so far hasn’t worked very well, so it’d be a bit silly to ditch what is selling for them currently in the hope that what hasn’t sold well for them will start to.

I don’t buy that toning down the hyper-sexuality of a lot of comic heroines would necessarily alienate current readers. How many people really buy comic just so they can get a look at Power Girl’s cleavage? Like Evil Captor pointed out, there are plenty of venues for that that will go a lot further than you’ll see in a Marvel or DC book. But even if there is a fan backlash, at this point, it really doesn’t matter, because the current market for comic books simply isn’t sustainable. The comic book industry is essentially an adjunct to the movie industry. It’s not comic books that are keeping Marvel and DC afloat these days, it’s those lucrative movie and merchandising deals that are bringing in the long green. The comics themselves are a tertiary concern, at best, which makes now the best possible time for a revamp of what the industry is doing on an editorial level. The problem is, the editors themselves are often clueless about what they’re doing. Check out that Eric Burns column I linked to earlier. He mentions Birds of Prey as a high-profile success in marketing comics to women for DC, then points to Heroes for Hire as an example of how Marvel, in trying to break into the same market, has completely missed the entire point by sticking tentacle rape on the cover of their BoP knock-off comic, thereby alienating precisely the audience they’re ostensibly trying to court.

You’re right that there are more titles coming out that are more female friendly. But I ask you, would these comics exist at all if people hadn’t been criticizing the industry for not having this at all? I don’t think so: you need to know a market exists before you can cater to it, and if everyone who doesn’t like the over-the-top sexualization so prevalent in comics had just kept their mouth shut, Marvel and DC would likely have never known that there was an audience for this stuff. So you’ve just justified the very complaints the OP has been trying to dismiss.

Comic books are certainly a ghetto, but the health of the industry is a secondary concern to me after my enjoyment as a reader. If they can grow the business while still putting out material I enjoy, then that’s cool, but if the only way to appeal to more readers is to dump what I like, well, then that doesn’t do much for me, you know?

It should be a concern for you, because if the industry fails, you’re not going to be getting your comics, either.

But yes, if all you want out of comics is boob war after boob war, then you certainly have no room to complain about the current state of the industry. Enjoy it while it lasts, because without change, comic books as you know them are going to die off.

True, but I’m not sure that’s the fault of super hero comics. Should super hero comics have to change their ways because romance, western and horror comics stopped selling in the 70s?

The domination of the comic medium by superhero comics is certainly not the fault of the comics themselves, that much I agree with. The domination of the superhero genre by these ridiculously sexualized characters, on the other hand, is. Should they have to change their ways because they’re the only game left in town? If they want to stay in business, yes, they do. The market is changing. The industry needs to change with it to survive. And it is changing: fitfully, and often incompetently, but it is changing, and it’s conversations like this one, and the ones Jodi and Fiver linked to, that are ultimatly guiding that change.

I mean, I’m a dude, and I like a good love story now and then. I’m not a reader of modern romance novels, but one of my favorite books is Pride and Prejudice. Another is Of Human Bondage, which I wouldn’t characterize as a love story, really, but does include a lot about love and relationships in it, and the protagonist is male. If the book industry published romance stories that were more male friendly, I might pick up one now and again. Should I start a blog advocating that?

If you think your tastes are being under-represented in the market, by all means, start that blog. But it seems to me that there are plenty of novels out there with male protagonists, that have romantic relationships as their primary focus. They tend not to be marketed under the “Romance” genre, but they certainly exist, and in quantity. That’s not so much the case with comic books.

ETA: Oh, and super hero comics no longer dominate the American comic market, really, if by that you mean ‘comics sold in America’ rather than ‘comics made in America’. DC and Marvel dominate the monthly market, but manga collections are doing very well in book stores. My local Borders has something like 8 shelves for manga, 2 for super hero trades, and 1 for other American stuff (non-superhero stuff from Vertigo, indies, and everything else).

No, I mean the American comics industry, not the American comics market. The manga explosion of recent years simply highlights the sorry state of our domestic comic production. If imported comics are four times as popular as domestic, then it’s pretty clear our domestic comic industry is fucked up.

[Miller]

@Evil Captor

Once again, a weak argument that probably shows up on message boards a lot. However, this argument does have a germ of logic buried in it. It would be better if it were phrase: “I like hot, voluptuous superheroines, why do you have the right to tell me what I should want to see in my comics? Especially as I am the one paying the way for the comics publishers?”

Who’s telling you what you should want from comics? It seems most people are saying what they want to see in comics, and indicating that they’d be more than happy to pay the way for comic publishers, provided they start publishing stuff they want to read.

This argument would be much harder to handle.

As it turned out, not so much.

[Evil_Captor]

The Bingo Card point 4
http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4

If you don’t like them, don’t read them!

A stronger argument than what has gone before. Surely there is enough published materials of various sorts that appeal to women that women don’t need to read comics. The response from the Bingo Card blogger is that she LIKES superhero comics, and that is a valid argument. If she likes superhero comics, she has a right to criticize, it’s not like she’s standing on the outside, fundamentally opposed to comics and just carping for the fun of it. The hot superheroines, which she perceives as sexism, inhibit her enjoyment of superhero comics.

The answer would be for some publisher to publish a comic that doesn’t have the hawt superheroines in order to see if there’s a market for it.

[Miller]

@Taber

Also, strawman? That argument doesn’t bear any resemblance to a strawman argument. If you really want to see a strawman argument, check out that bingo card.

Are you saying the Bingo card itself is a strawman, or that the arguments it collects are strawmen?

[Odesio]

@Evil Captor

That is, I acknowledge that comics have women with very appealing figures wearing revealing costumes and often posed in ways that are appealing to males, but I’d argue that’s being sexy, not necessarily sexist.

As was pointed out last time you brought this up, it isn’t simply the fact that female comic book characters are drawn to be attractive that gets comics labelled as sexist. Has anyone ever made Thor strip completely and jump rope in front of a room full of women? No, but they sure had She-Hulk strip and jump rope in front of a room full of men. Batman breaks his back and he’s back in action not so long after that. Batgirl gets shot and paralyzed but for some reason she doesn’t get to come back as Batgirl. Has Superman ever had his powers taken away as part of a permanent change to his character? No, but they did this to Wonder Woman. So I will concede that having sexy women is not in and of itself sexist. Then again, I guess it just depends on how they go about potraying the heroine as sexy.

American comic book publishers are just appealing to the interests of their fan base.

These girls are just appealing to the interest of their fans. Did I just Godwinize this thread? Nah, I’m just pointing out that your argument that they’re just appealing to the interest of their fans doesn’t make them immune from criticism.

Just don’t try to persuade me that it’s wrong to make comics that appeal to a male readership, without also maintaining that it’s wrong to make comics that appeal to a female readership.

Nobody’s trying to persuade you that it’s wrong to make comics that appeal to male readers. You can appeal to male readers without sexism though.

Marc

[Miller]

@Evil Captor

The Bingo Card point 4
Girl Wonder – Wholesale Jeans & Replica Watches (Rolex) – Fake Rolex Replica Watches

A stronger argument than what has gone before. Surely there is enough published materials of various sorts that appeal to women that women don’t need to read comics. The response from the Bingo Card blogger is that she LIKES superhero comics, and that is a valid argument. If she likes superhero comics, she has a right to criticize, it’s not like she’s standing on the outside, fundamentally opposed to comics and just carping for the fun of it. The hot superheroines, which she perceives as sexism, inhibit her enjoyment of superhero comics.

The answer would be for some publisher to publish a comic that doesn’t have the hawt superheroines in order to see if there’s a market for it.

You know, if you’re going to make a seperate post for every argument on that cite, it’s going to get really tedious, really fast. No, wait, sorry, too late: it’s already tedious. How about engaging in the debate happening with posters from this board, instead? Especially seeing how it’s happening in the thread you started, and all.

[Jodi]

Some interesting reading: Women In Refrigerators.

[Menocchio]

First off, I do slightly disagree with the statement that art has no obligation to society. To state otherwise is to suggest that art has no part in shaping society, something that’s patently false. I’d strongly oppose government pressure on the comic industry, but they are reflective of the societal problem of sexism in general. Treat women like sex objects in art, and you’ll see them treated that way in reality.* I’m not saying there’s no place for cheesecake or full-on porn in comics, just as there’s certainly a place for sexuality in reality, but the overall trend shouldn’t be for heroines (or villainesses, or female supporting characters younger than Aunt May) to have sex as their primary and often only character trait.

And that’s my real problem. Within the essential tropes of the superhero genre, I want fully realized characters. Even if she were written very well, it’s hard to take a female character seriously if she’s fighting in skimpy lingerie and posing like she’s in Playboy (in fact, one artist traces porn for his female characters constantly, it just looks weird and stupid, espeically in action scenes).

*Although the mirror reflects both ways. I fully acknowledge that changing reality directly is both more important and will also ultimately result in more balanced comics.

[Menocchio]

@Jodi

Some interesting reading: Women In Refrigerators.

I absolutely adore Gail Simone’s work in comics, but I have a big problem with that list.

Superhero comics are soap operas, and they delight in torturing their protagonists (and their friends and loved ones). I mean, just look at Spider-Man! I’d be open to the opinion that women get the shaft in different, and presumably worse, ways than the men do, but merely cataloging their woes doesn’t go very far in supporting that.

[Taber]

@Miller

Are you saying the Bingo card itself is a strawman, or that the arguments it collects are strawmen?

I’m saying that the bingo card is a collection of the weakest, easiest refuted, most watered down version of arguments for the other side. I’m sure somewhere there’s an internet troglodyte telling she should shut up “because she’s just jealous” or asking her if “she wants all women in comics to be fat and ugly,” but I hardly think that refuting those is very helpful to her side, because those aren’t the legitimate arguments of the other side.

I may be looking at the arguement from the wrong angle. I look at the question of “are comics sexist?” as a question of “Do comics treat men and women differently in an immoral fashion?” rather than “Do comics treat men and women characters differently?” or even “Do comics treat men and women differently, in a way that women don’t like?”

The answer to the latter two questions are an obvious yes. The women in comics are often intended as base pandering to the horny male reader, and are thus overly sexualized. Is base pandering immoral? I don’t know. Are romance novels immoral because they pander to the horny female reader? I don’t know either. Though I’d look at the difference between the pandering in comics to the pandering in romance novels as evidence of sexism in the perception of the differences between the sexuality of the two genders, but I guess that’s a different thread.

It doesn’t seem like the arguements listed on the bingo card don’t seem to be trying to defend to morality of comic sexism, they seem to be trying to deny the existance of it, So I may have looked at it from the wrong angle, but I do think the squares are only dumbed down versions of real arguements.

I’m not sure what the main arguement of the blogwriter is. If it along the lines of wanting to be able to reliably get comics that have realistic female characters, and without sexploitation, then I am all for it. If she is trying to completely eliminate sexploitation in comics, or define it as immoral, I’ll have to say good luck! to the second, I will say that guys will always like looking at women of unrealistic proportions, and Marvel and DC are just filling a niche. I do beleive that comics need to seek a balance more a mainstream media, like movies, as most movies only have mild sexploitation, which often goes both ways (recently at least), but still has a niche for both women targetted and men targetted movies, where the sexploitation drives harder in the appropriate direction. Though I will admit that even in movies, men get a bigger slice of the sexploitation pie.

[Evil_Captor]

@Menocchio

Because they aren’t allowed to be anything *but *sexy. Batman, Superman, Captain America, these guys all have attributes much important to their characters than their rugged good looks and tight-fitting clothing. Heroines often don’t. They’re sex objects first and anything else second if at all.

Oh, come on. Power Girl is about as powerful as Superman, Witchblade has the Magic Glove Thingie going and that whole mystical succession, Vampirella is a vampire and a vampire hunter – their schtick is actually their main thing, the hottitude is just extra added fun.

[Frylock]

@Evil Captor

The Bingo Card point 3
Girl Wonder – Wholesale Jeans & Replica Watches (Rolex) – Fake Rolex Replica Watches

Once again, a weak argument that probably shows up on message boards a lot. However, this argument does have a germ of logic buried in it. It would be better if it were phrase: “I like hot, voluptuous superheroines, why do you have the right to tell me what I should want to see in my comics? Especially as I am the one paying the way for the comics publishers?” This argument would be much harder to handle.

She has every right to tell you what you should want to see in your comics. Do you really disagree with this?

-FrL-