Well, what’s great about freedom is the bingo-card writer can draw her own comic and try to sell it. I wish her luck.
And yes, that is my answer for everything.
Yes, and my response to that is that that the overwhelmingly straight male readership wants to see female characters being sexy, and doesn’t want to see male characters being sexy. If they DID, the comics would feature it. But they most emphatically DON’T want to see male characters being sexy, and DO want to see female characters being sexy. That’s not sexism, it’s SEXUALITY. Guys like women to be sexy. There’s nothing wrong with that.
I’ve got no brief for female characters being depowered/tortured/raped/killed, so it’s not a strong issue with me. Slowing down the attrition rate for female characters in this respect would be fine with me. However, as has been pointed out, it’s hard to know how valid this complaint is without some comparison with similar tragic events for male superheroes.
Please explain what is so awful or shameful about ordinary male interest in sexy women that makes it comparable to Nazi stuff.
I think there are some people who equate some of the stuff a regular guy finds sexy with sexism. Those are the people I disagree with.
And once again, you miss the point. The objection isn’t to women in comics being sexy, it’s to women in comics being sexist. You can, in fact, be sexy without being sexist.
You know, I think you need to take a good look at your libido and recognize that you might not have the best grasp on what counts as sexy to a “regular” guy. I don’t mean that as an insult: Lord knows, I’ve got kinks-a-plenty myself. But you seem to be taking the position that the only way you can have sexy women in comic books is to dress them like strippers and pose them like porn stars. Hell, no one is even saying that you can’t ever do that at all, just that it shouldn’t be the default method of portraying women in comic books.
As long as the line between the two remains ridiculously arbitrary, I’d say… no, you can’t, because there will always be someone complaining.
If anything, I’d say examples of comics being a lot more sexist can be found in the first four decades of Superman stories with Lois Lane being in constant need of rescue but drawn conservatively. Compare that to more recent stories featuring a tougher, more independent Lois, who suddenly sports 38DD breasts barely contained by whatever skimpy garment the artist has grudingly included.
So which is the more sexist image? Which, if either, is more acceptably sexy?
Did you even read my example? They forced, they didn’t ask they forced, She-Hulk to strip down naked in front of a room full of men. Within that context, it’s not sexy it’s humiliating. (I made a mistake, she didn’t jump rope she just sarcastically asked them if they wanted her to jump rope.)
You may find humiliating female characters to be sexy but that doesn’t mean everyone does.
You know, when talking about whether comics are sexy or sexist this particular issue is kind of important to the conversation.
If that interest in sexy women includes shouting for them to “show us your tits” (like they did to Power Girl) then maybe it does deserve criticism. At any rate, I was simply pointing out that pandering to your audience is no defense from criticism.
And there are some people who refuse to even consider that some comics are sexism despite the many examples they are shown. You really haven’t offered any compelling counter arguments.
Marc
Do you read romance novels? Have you read any lately? The genre has changed dramatically since the bodice rippers of the '60s and '70s. Hell, it’s even changed dramatically since the early '90s. A lot of women don’t have those fantasies, and think they’re ridiculous and hard to identify with. In fact, there’s a school of thought in criticism that suggests the rapes and near-rapes of earlier years are a reflection of the idea that “good girls don’t” – in order for the reader to identify with the character, the character had to be placed in a situation where she had little chance but to give in. The very limited (and, yes, sexist) views allowed for women didn’t let her say, “You know, I want to have sex. I’d like to have sex.” So forced sex was the only way to instigate that part of the relationship. Nowadays, a rape as the first sexual encounter between the leads is the exception rather than the rule.
Apart from that, love scenes (very rarely are they sex scenes) aren’t just there for titillation. They more often serve to further the intimacy between characters or as a moment of enlightenment for the female character. In contemporary romances, it’s often the woman who makes the first move, taking charge of her sexuality. Why? Because the audience wants it! They want characters that they can identify with, that reflect the struggles that they go through.
So, be careful before you go throwing around what you think women want to see in genre fiction. Your claims do not represent my opinions or the opinions of millions of women out there. The audience for the romance genre is incredibly diverse, and subsequently, so are the topics covered. No, it’s not fine literature, but it’s (for the most part) far removed from the stereotype of the dumb blonde and her hirsute rapist/lover. Women in general do not find rape sexy, and the genre has changed to reflect that.
As for getting on romance novels’ case, believe me, women are.
Covered this point already.
OK, in a subsequent post you said She-Hulk was FORCED to strip and jump rope in a room full of men. I hope you will concede that there is an enormous difference in meaning between “had” and “forced.” To know how sexist it was, I’d have to have more context: was it bad guys forcing her to strip and jump rope? Good guys? What’s the deal here? Simply the fact that she was forced to strip and jump rope is not proof of sexism. If bad guys did it, and got their just rewards, it’s no different from bad guys doing some other kind of bad deed. I’ll post more about this in a subsequent post, I’m in edit mode now.
This might weill be evidence of sexism as you say. I always thought it was stupid to have a kickass superheroine in a wheelchair. At least give her a suit of power armor so she can kick ass despite her disability.
Also, I agree that depowering Wonder Woman as they did in the 60s was major league stupid and very likely the product of sexism. I mean, they stripped her of ALL her powers and most of her mythology, leaving her little more than an Emma Peel clone. And Wonder Woman is one of DC’s Big Three superheroes, which made it even more stupid. It’s not like they took Matter Eater Lad’s powers away.
That’s true. If you use the sexiness as a way to limit the character, making her and other women somehow lesser creatures than men, you are being sexist.
I think some people think sexiness is evidence of sexism. You may not be trying to persuade me of that, but I’ve seen far too many screeds decrying imagery that I find tasty and appealing as sexist to think some of that’s not going on with other folks.
I don’t buy that at all. People understand the difference between reality and fantasy. Those few who don’t are considered mentally defective, i.e., insane. One of the liberating aspects of art is that it does leave us free to express ideas and feeling and so forth that don’t fly in the real world at all. This is one of my beefs with certain brands of feminism – they completely miss this important aspect of art. Frex, people read war novels and murder mysteries all the time without committing murder or engaging in firefights.
Perhaps you’ll do us the favor of naming a few heroines, villainesses or female supporting characters who fit your description.
Ah, but guys in spandex body stockings and masks with green light powers and so forth are COMPLETELY believable as fully realized characters, even if they are constantly posing as if for bodybuilding and wrestling magazines. I see.
She was forced to strip naked in the SHIELD Heli-Carrier because an unethical SHIELD Agent was threatening the well being of her boyfriend, Wyatt Wingfoot I think, and after stripping she sarcastically asked if they would like her to “jump rope” for them. So no, they didn’t actually make her jump rope, but as you’ve indicated the circumstances of her stripping hardly matters to you since it’s just another bad thing that bad guys do.
I suppose I could reiterate that Thor would never be made to do such a thing but you would simply counter that the audience for comics is young males who wouldn’t find such a thing sexy. How that excuses the sexist treatment of superheroines is a bit silly to me but you’ve managed to do it somehow. So unless either one of us can come up with something different this will just continue to go round and round.
I tell you what. When you come to a firm conclusion either way then please get back to me.
Given that they wouldn’t degrade Thor, Superman, Batman, or Spider-Man like they have Power Girl, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and She-Hulk I’m hard pressed to figure out what your standards of sexism actually are.
With your penchant for bondage I’d hesitate to even imagine what you find to be tasty and appealing. That’s ok, different strokes and all that, but what you apparantly find sexy others might view as sexism.
Marc
I’ll take this one: Buffy Summers. Faith. Zoe Warren. River Tam. Sarah Connor. Ensign Ro. Major Kira. Tasha Yar. Sharon Agathon. Kara Thrace. Jaime Somers. Agatha Heterodyne.
All of those women are beautiful, competent ass-kickers, and none of them has ever dressed like she just pulled a shift at the Pink Pony.
And none of them are comics characters except the last, and Agatha is from an indy comic (now a webcomic).
This argument strikes me as not directly relevant to the thread at hand, so maybe should start its own thread, but I have to say, it’s all I can do to keep up with this thread at present.
I’ve read a few.
Last year I read a couple when an editor was pitching one of my novels to some romance publishers.
Sure, a lot of women don’t have rape fantasies. But a lot of women DO have rape fantasies. I’m not sure I buy your theory of why they have them, either.
That’s definitely true of some of the, probably your preferred brand, but there are others that still prefer an alpha male taming a headstrong and wayward woman. And plenty of others.
But some women do. A few quotes to convince you, from various romance readers and writers on the web (the last quote cited is the one that I think hits the nail on the head). Bolding mine:
Not Ms. McKnittington’s quotes
Back to Ms. McKnittington:
I don’t think you or anyone else has any right to prescribe the sexual tastes of others, whether they be male or female. Or proscribe them, for that matter.
Nonsense. Art does have an effect on the reader. Not in the sense that we’re going to go out and emulate the exact same acts of the books (and you’re of course aware that the vast majority of murder mysteries are ultimately anti-murder, and the tales about finding the killing and watching him get his just deserts), but in that they both shape and reflect the views of the society that shaped it. A society that has low respect for women will produce art that shows that disrespect, and those attitudes will be reinforced and perpetuated by the art.
Ones that are “all sex object all the time” you mean? It would be a shorter list if I did the inverse, as Fiver did (although I could do it, and with characters from mainstream comics too). But the worst ones at the top of my head:
She-Hulk, Mary-Jane Watson Parker, Lady Death, Dawn, Vampirella, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Phantom Lady, Dumb Bunny, Catwoman, the Black Cat, Eclipso, Zatanna, Black Canary, Mary Marvel, and Supergirl.
They don’t, though, not as much as the girls pose. And when they do pose, their poses suggest heroism, strength, nobility, power, badassedness, not sex.
I’ve been all over the point like white on rice.
The objection isn’t to women in comics being sexy, it’s to women in comics being sexist. You can, in fact, be sexy without being sexist.
[/quote]
And so we agree. The question becomes, what does “sexy without being sexist” mean?
Hey, this may not be Great Debates, but I still don’t have to accept a sleazy-ass argumentum ad hominem from you, no matter how nicely worded it may be. If you have a particular problem with my arguments, spill. Just saying I don’t have a grasp on the topic at hand because my libido differs from yours is utter, purest bullshit. Argue the case, if you have any arguments left.
See my response to Purl McKnittington. Also, note that I think this is a side issue.
I’ve got no problem with comics evolving one way or the other, so long as they do it as part of responding to the natural tastes of their readers and are not pushed into it by peeps with agendas.
The core of your argument for sexy comics is that guys want all cheesecake all the time. Virtually everyone else in this thread and its predecessor has told you “no, we don’t”. Not all the time anyway, not the way comics try to sell it to us, and not at the cost of characterization.
One of the two parties is wrongfully representing the male libido here. Given that both sides have among them heterosexual males, an obvious possible reason why is that they’re projecting their own libido unto all men.
In other words, I agree with Miller.
The reason I mentioned bad guys is that their involvement would make it not so much a violation of character that she did a striptease. She was forced to. If she’s portrayed as a serious person who would never do a striptease, then does one out fo the blue for no reason, just because she’s a hottie and all hotties like to do stripteases, that would be sexist.
Second, if she’s forced to do the striptease, but strips with the ease and skill of a professional exotic dancer even though no groundwork had been laid to the effect that she can dance exotically or otherwise, but just because she’s a hottie and all hotties are naturally good at exotic dance, that would be sexist. (And also insulting to exotic dancers, many of whom take lessons and practice to get good at their craft.)
But there’s nothing INNATELY sexist about having a female character do a striptease, even if no male character ever does one, ever. If there had been groundwork laid to the effect that She-Hulk’s human side had taken belly dancing lessons for years, and she stripped and belly danced beautifully, it might not be sexist.
I would expect a person who had never practiced dancing/stripping to be embarrassed and to do it rather badly.
Now as far as Power Girl being called upon to “Show Us Yer Tits” I assume the guys who did it were louts and that what she did was give them an up close and personal view of her fist in the face, or to diss the living shit out of them in some other way. That’s consistent with my understanding of the character. Am I wrong about that?
OK, let’s try another tack. In porn for straight males, it’s always women who give men blowjobs. Never other men. Would you maintain that that is sexism? (I understand that comics do not equal porn, but bear with me for the moment.)
If they made Power Girl, Batgitrl, Wonder Woman, She-Hulk and most other female superheroes to be a bunch of whiny-ass losers who used their looks to make up for their lack of ability, I’d think that was sexist. For the most part, these characters seem to kick major ass, however.
Yawn. Argumentum ad hominem. See my response to Miller.
If this kind of thing was isolated I’d probably agree with you. However, what you fail to recognize is that this kind of thing is a pattern. Female characters in comics are fairly consistently degraded in ways that male characters are not. They lose their powers, they’re permanently crippled, and they’re sexually harassed,
Apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges. My expectations in pornography are far different from my expectations in mainstream superhero comic books.
I’m sorry, but you are mistaken that I made an ad hominem attack. If I may quote you. I bolded the most important part.
I did not bring up your personal taste until you did. You chose to make it a part of the debate by railing against those who find the images that you find to be “tasty and appealing” as sexist, at that point your predilection for bondage erotica became fair game. As I addressed your argument I fail to see any logical fallacy.
Marc
It’s not an ad hominem at all. You keep saying what “guys” want, but what you are in fact saying is what you want. There is, in fact, a fairly significant gulf between what you find erotic and what the average male finds erotic. Your flaw in this thread is not in what you find erotic, it’s in your ability to perceive the relationship in what you find erotic and what is considered erotic by mainstream society. You aren’t speaking for the masses, EC. You’re speaking for a very small minority. Most people don’t find the way women are portrayed in comics to be particularly attractive. That’s one of the reasons most people don’t buy comics.
No love for Halo Jones? That was a great strip; Alan Moore’s stab at creating a female comics protagonist who was neither just a scantily clad bit of of fluff nor even a scantily clad arse-kicking Amazon: she was just an ordinary young woman who felt stultified by her life and got out and saw the universe, without getting her kit off. Admittedly Ian Gibson is congenitally incapable of drawing unattractive women, but Halo was always more Jewel Staite than Pamela Anderson.
Well, I’ve never read any Halo Jones comics.
But since you mention Alan Moore, I’ll add Cobweb, from the ABC book Tomorrow Stories; Promethea from her own title, and Mina Harker from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
All comics, of course, but none mainstream Marvel or DC. And Promethea is scantily clad, of course, but I challenge anyone to read that book and come away thinking it’s sexist.