I have explained it. Repeatedly, and at length. It hasn’t stopped EC from persistently mischaracterizing it as, “You just don’t want comics to be sexy.” If he cannot, or will not, address the actual argument being made, there’s not much point in restating them yet again.
Well, unfortunately, I’m not sure it’s even possible to be sexy (to some people) without being sexist (to other people). If the artists go too far and the people in the latter group outnumber those in the former, I’m content to let the market work its magic.
Well, the easy (and oft repeated in this thread) solution to that is to not always fall back on exactly the same stereotypes of “sexy” women. Instead of all superheroines dressing and acting like whores, only have some of them act that way, and have other female characters be sexy in different ways. That way, when someone complains about a depiction of a particular character being sexist, you can legitimatly point to other characters who have been depicted in different ways, and say, “That’s just the way this one character is.” Plus, it would help make some of the characterizations make more sense: the amount of grief Power Girl gets over her breasts and costume is pretty stupid, when you consider that every other superheroine on the planet has a gigantic rack and a costume that’s made up of about three microns of spandex. If there were more variety among superheroines, those comments would make a lot more sense.
The market works best when consumers speak up about what they want (and do not want) in the products they buy, which is what this discussion is all about. Note that no one is calling for a boycott or special legislation over this issue. Let the market work its magic? Sure. What else did you think we were doing here?
Kvetching, mostly.
My intent in starting the thread was to establish a dialog between people who think comics are sexist and people who think they are just sexy. I think I accomplished that. It’s unlikely that people who have strong position on either side of an argument will ever persuade each other to take the other’s position in an online discussion – typically, they have to much personal and emotional investment in their positions to change them easily, or even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary.
However, people who don’t have much investment in either position can read the thread and form opinions based on what they read. Or just have fun. Either works. But I think people are influenced by seeming stalemates – they figure out what position makes the most sense to them. Compare the number of views to the number of posts on this thread. A lot of people have read this without posting.
I think we’ve ridden this horse as far as it can go. At this point it’s just become a circular discussion.
Marc
And in the interest of full disclosure, notwithstanding the arguments I’ve made in this thread, I intend to cosplay Power Girl at Dragon*Con next year and have cosplayed Zatanna in the past.
Today I found out that this cover has been altered to remove the man’s bulge.
This has lead to some interesting discussion of whether this change was helpful or hurtful to the piece, why breasts and camel toe are allowable but supermen tend to be undefined or “even concave”, etc. No argument from me, I just found it interesting and perhaps relevant to the thread.
I 'unno, I’m too busy being distracted by the ad for the superheroine “Flare” at right.
Bolding mine.
Talk about a dead giveaway. At heart you are a prude, that’s what’s at the bottom of your supposed concern over “sexism.”
Wow. That that’s the conclusion you draw from Miller’s statement says much more about you than you think what he said says about him.
And now I’m a little curious about the content of the novels you say you’ve written.
Bryan Ekers:
Better not drive a bus, then.
I’m with **Fiver ** on this one. That you see that says more about you than it does about him. Did you even notice he said “only have some of them act that way” underneath? You know, to suggest that actually he’s fine with it in some circumstances? Or would that be too interfering with your fun ad hominem attack having failed to convince people that your standards of sexiness are the best through actual argument? Judging from your posts, i’m not entirely sure the words “gratuitious sexuality” have ever graced your lips.
Right you are. I am quite the sharp observer, a good drawer of inferences, as it were. Thank you for saying so, if only implicitly.
Miller said all the superheroines in comics act and dress like whores, and that it would be better if only some of them did.
In point of fact, very few comic book superheroines have sex for money. I can only think of one:
As for the “dress like whores” comment, that’s been the cry of angry old biddies of various genders looking at younger women in their shocking thises and titillating thats since whores have been around. A comment like that is like a “tell” in poker … it shows me what you are really thinking. And also the casual reader, I’m afraid. No amount of being mad at me for pointing it out will change that.
Link disabled as some might consider it NSFW.
So let me get this straight, EC. You write erotic stories about women being depowered and raped and we’re suppose to accept your standards for the difference between sexy and sexist as valid? It boggles the mind.
Marc
Am I entitled to any opinions on the topic?
If we all say “no” will you stop offering them?
No.
I’ll say “yes, he does”, just for laughs.
And because it’s, y’know, right.
Certainly, and I would like to point out that at no point have I ever questioned your right to have an opinion on the subject. I simply question the worth of your opinion is all.
Marc