Are extreme "nice guys" real?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

I look back at how dumb and immature I was when I was younger, and shake my head. I really regret all the potential friendships I could have had. When I was in High School I had this huge crush on this half Japanese girl. She was very friendly to everyone and I stupidly mistook her gregariousness for affection. At some point she figured out I liked her in a romantic way and was kind enough to clarify she didn’t see me in the same kind of way. I stormed off in an angsty huff and apparently she felt really awful, but looking back I feel terrible for reacting in that kind of way. She was a really fun person to be around and I regret not handling it more maturely because we might still be friends to this day :frowning:

I guess I understand the nature of “Nice Guys” well because I used to be one years ago but thankfully grew out of it. I look back on it with a lot of regret and embarassment because honestly it’s not the woman’s fault in 99% of the cases. I don’t know if most “Nice Guys” grow out of it like me or just get stuck in some stupid loop.

For me what really helped me to change was to date a lot of people. Occasionally I would meet someone who was interested in me, but I was not attracted to at all. Being able to be on the other side of the dynamic kind of helped me become more self-aware of what I had been doing, and so I had a healthier attitude. When I met my wife, I was very clear that I was interested in her, but had she not reciprocated my interest I would not take it personally. Part of what holds these “Nice guys” back is they get so hung up on one person; if you want a relationship, and the woman isn’t into you, move on! Be open to the idea of friendship, but if she doesn’t see you as boyfriend material then you are just wasting your own time and holding yourself back thinking it might happen in the future.

Jackmannii, the women that continue to throw themselves in abusive relationships seems to be something different. For them, I really feel like its continuing a cycle of abuse they suffered from their own family. Women drawn to men that beat them tend to have a poor sense of boundaries and self-worth. I don’t think its an ‘equivalent’ to Nice Guys. And like Ibn Warraq mentioned, there are also “Nice Girls” who have a similar gimmick.

Often what people are not consciously aware of is that when you see someone being pursued/in a relationship, it gives that person an implicit ‘value’ in your mind. Would you want to date someone that nobody else wanted to date? There might be a reason they are single. But someone in a relationship has gotten at least one person interested enough in them to pursue a romantic relationship.

22

Also, men that think women only date ‘Jerks’ are making themselves victim of a particular Game Theory.

Think about a game with a set of rules. Most people play by the rules literally, but some people are clever and find loopholes which give them a significant advantage. Because they are playing against people who play ‘by the book’, they tend to win in ways their opponent didn’t anticipate. To the ‘by the book’ player, this comes off as ‘cheating’ ‘playing dirty’, etc.

Nice Guys concoct a set of rules in their head. Maybe stuff like “Always hold the door open for a woman you like”. Or “Buy a woman dinner” “Fix her printer” “Be her designated driver”. Objectively, all these things are kind acts, but for the Nice Guy they are self-serving and often very transparent. The ‘jerks’ the Nice Guy sees don’t necessarily play by these rules, which is what makes them ‘jerks’.

To the Nice Guy, assertiveness is interpreted as assholeness. The Jerk is proactive, speaks up, and is often much more outgoing than the Nice Guy. I see some Nice Guys adopt the “straightedge” lifestyle (no drugs/alcohol) but they do it as though this is giving them ‘points’. Rather than be adaptive to social situations, outgoing and assertive, they think the proper behavior is to be passive. Ironically, this often ends up making them invisible; they’re unlikely to just ask the woman out, unlikely to fit in at parties, unlikely to have common friends to build familiarity, unlikely to outwardly express interest in the woman they like. So for months there’s this guy who is just around and maybe eventually the woman finds out he had some crazy crush on her the whole time, and has this weird mixture of obsession and anger that his invisible gestures are not reciprocated.

23

I feel like “Nice Guy” is starting to get overapplied (or some peoples’ feelings and actions overanalyzed) a bit. Sometimes it feels like people get yelled at and sarcastic shit thrown at them for so much as feeling bad for getting rejected.

I’m not saying Nice Guys aren’t skeevy or a problem, but I feel like on the internet a lot of people are starting to have this weird extreme blowback where not being ecstatic to be rejected is tantamount to being a weirdo fedora wearing MRA. I feel like there’s some middle ground there where you can feel sad you were rejected, and maybe kind of vaguely hope they’ll change their mind, but also legitimately want to be their friend because you like them as a person. Sometimes I feel that middle ground is lost in the internet shitstorm and you either have to choose whether you’re completely detached from your emotions or an asshole stalker.

Yes, there are red flags with the “women only date jerks” claptrap and related nonsense. But I’ve certainly seen people get lynched for being a Nice Guy just because they were sad a person they really liked didn’t reciprocate with the “oh boo hoo I’m sorry you didn’t get her pussy like you’re entitled to” stuff.

24

Yes, but people who are socially awkward (and not even necessarily Nice Guys) can get very mixed messages. You often see women complain about getting hit on at work, or school, or by some skeevy guy at the bar, or how they don’t go to anime conventions to be hit on, etc. So somebody who isn’t the best at social cues can very easily take the path of avoidance and say “I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable…”

If you take all of these complaints en masse you can very easily get the picture that making any romantic or sexual advance on a woman will piss her off or make her uncomfortable. Even if you accept that some people can pull it off, if you’re self aware enough to know that you’re socially awkward, you can conclude that if you were to try, you would just be the skeevy guy she would talk about the next day, because you’d be too awkward to pull it off.

If you take it too far, you can interpret that anyone who does move forward is a jerk, because he’s not considering that maybe that woman doesn’t want to be hit on. In fact, it’s true that a more assertive or confident person probably has made at least one woman uncomfortable with his advances. If you’re overly ideological, you could see this as morally wrong.

25

The man in the OPs question has a woman and is totally and completely secure of keeping her; his fears of people breaking in to steal her just confirm his confidence. And the fact that he can’t handle that his wife is attractive
to anyone besides him is never ever a control-freak red flag. Still, Lets Not Meet all of his valid fears at once, as valid fears are often persistent delusions rationalized to the point of group-think common sense.

I’m sure that this person who he is afraid of just mills about his neighborhood and hangs around their house. Maybe he hires people to drive by their house & make sure their cars are there. I’m guessing that he must travel nearly
constantly just to be around them, like he has no job. I’m sure he would be constantly pushing the couple by physically being where they are and trying to initiate an in-person confrontation, like when they are trying to drive
to or from work.

I mean, thats what the plot line was on the Lifetime channel, right?

Oh, I agree with the OP. Who would tolerate such a Stalker? I mean, you can go to the police and put them on notice that there are aggressive drivers on your commute… and you can put them on alert that there creepy skeevy scumbags
milling about your neighborhood who don’t live there and have no business there. But until they are caught, people are on their own.

Maybe the OP can get a shotgun and defend HIS house? Or maybe he can make the road stalking so expensive to the other parties that it becomes less than worth while?

I know all about the gift of fear. Still, I must say that re-gifting seems quite thrifty…

26

Incubus, if I might ask, approximately how old were you when you “grew out of it”? I ask because I think there may be a “ceiling limit” to the age of the “Nice Guy,” and you are the first poster to admit to ever being close to being one. I’ve not found many “Nice Guys” over the age of 30, 35 … a few, but not many.

Interestingly, my mother gave this to me as advice for why you should always try to find a new job while you already have a job. If someone else has you, there is a feeling of “winning” to take you away, and if you do not have a job(/relationship,) then why does no one else want you?

27

Nice Guys in the jerkish, self-entitled sense do exist, but they are outnumbered by genuine nice guys, some of whom may just lack a bit of confidence when it comes to dating. I continue to be annoyed at how the term has been hijacked to mean only jerks.

As for nice guy in the sense the OP is defining it, sure, it’s pretty common, and not just amongst men. We don’t get to choose our feelings, and it’s easy to find yourself in a situation where you care about someone that you know doesn’t care about you.

28

Also, they’re so self-absorbed that it never occurs to them how fucking assholish and hurtful this is. Are there guys who have a genuine friendship with a girl/woman who, over time, develop romantic feelings/attraction for her? Definitely. And is it understandable that, if he tells her how she feels and she doesn’t feel the same way, he could be upset or hurt? Definitely.

But these NGs who bitch about being friendzoned were never genuine friends. To them, a friendship with a girl/woman is only a stepping stone to a romantic relationship and worthless otherwise. But hey, don’t even try to see what that feels like to the girl, who has discovered that the NG was not only never her friend, but also that said NG doesn’t see YOU as worth ANYTHING other than someone he can stick it in. Who you are, your personality, interests, passions, quirks, dreams, ambitions… he doesn’t care; your worth and value are reduced to your appearance and your warm holes. Oh yeah, that’s not hurtful at all.

29

I’d like to point out that guy can initially like a girl and then still sincerely want to be friends once they find out the feeling isn’t mutual.

“Cool story bro” time:

Back in my early 20’s I met a girl through a group of mutual friends. We became close and spent a lot of time together. During this time, I started to have romantic feelings for her, but I kept my mouth shut because I suspected the feeling wasn’t mutual.

Anyway, one night we were having a little too much to drink. We were deep into conversation and she’s telling me how glad she is to have me in her life, her main point being, that I’ve always been upfront and honest with her.

At that point, in my drunken stupor, I started to feel guilty, so I opened my big dumb mouth and told her how I feel. I also went on to tell her that I know she doesn’t feel the same way and I’m cool with that, I just want to stay friends.

At the time, she seemed to handle it pretty well, she was like “alright, cool. Thanks for telling me.”

Fast forward, one month later: I find out from a mutual friend that she’s been questioning if I have ulterior motives. Like one time (post drunken stupor) I put my arm around her told her how hot she looked after her specifically asking me about a new outfit she bought.

[Caveat: Before all this mess, physical contact was normal for us. At parties, or at the club, she would sometimes sit on my lap. Watching TV together she would sometimes snuggle up to me and put her head on my shoulder.]

There was lots of other shit she was doing that was pissing me off, so I basically just blew her off. After about a month of me ignoring her, she calls me up and confronts me about why I’ve been avoiding her.

I started to yell at her that I’m not going to have everything I do be second guessed by her. She yells at me that I have no idea what women go through…

We eventually got past it though and remained close friends until we naturally grew apart. (Or I got married and my social dynamic changed.)

So anyway, I guess my whole point of telling this story is that it kind of sticks in my craw when we assume the default position of the NG is that he just wants to “wear the woman down to get his pussy owed.”

I think that’s rather crass and a shitty thing to assume.

30

This is true, but I would say in the “textbook” friendzone situation, neither is really acting like a friend; it usually takes two to friendzone IMO.

That is, A knows B is into him/her. And B knows A doesn’t feel the same way. But neither person wants to rock the boat, for different reasons.

And I’m not saying that in some sort of bitter way. Usually no-one is trying to use or hurt anyone in this situation.

31

Reminds me of a Doobie Brothers song

32

Often what happens is the woman is very non confrontational and the guy a little dense. The woman didn’t want to make a huge deal about it so it gives the guy this false hope a relationship could still happen. It’s not the woman’s fault because generally she’s not explicitly doing anything to lead the guy on and interpreting his kind actions as “wow what a great friend”. The guy is also not explicitly showing interest because he’s so shy and passive; much of his real feelings are internalized.

This is why it gets so awkward. By the time the woman might feel pressured to act, it’s gotten to the point where things are getting creepy. Maybe the guy follows her around everywhere, touches her inappropriately, acts weirdly possessive around other guys, etc.

So for the women that have dealt with this, they tend to be very proactive and might take some male friendships with a grain of salt. Sure that trilby-wearing nerd that wants to show you his swordsmanship skills flailing around in his mom’s basement could just be a harmless friend that sees you as every other friend. Or he could be a really lonely guy that latches onto you. Women that second guess friendships like in Shakes story have likely had to deal with a lot of BS to get to that point. They would probably rather risk hurting your feelings by suspecting you to be a creep than ignore their gut and be in a potentially dangerous situation (cornering the woman while talking about how much he’s in love with her, putting her in scary situations that risk her safety being compromised when telling the guy ‘no’.)

33

I’m sure that happens, and I do sympathize with women in that almost anything they do can be misinterpreted by guys as showing romantic interest in them. It’s awkward, I see that.

But that’s not the situation I was trying to describe.

For example, I’ve been in the friend zone. What happened with me was every time we met it was like a mock date; it was always just the two of us. If I invited her to something where other friends would be around, she’d decline. We’d go for dinner together at fancy places, sit beside the lake at night, go on day-trips.

She’d let me put my arm around her, and if you had seen us, you would assume we were a couple. But I was just like a practice, no-stress boyfriend. There was always some distance, and I knew as soon as I made a genuine pass at her, I would never see her again. And that’s why it took me so long to do it.
And I’ve seen the same situation happen with other people.

Before you feel too sorry for me, I’m in a great relationship right now. It was just one of those dumb periods in my life that many of us have been through.

34

Yeah. It’s been a while, but I had one ‘Nice Guy’ in my life, and I came out of it feeling emotionally battered and bloody.

[Long story removed because boring], so I emailed him to say that my boyfriend/his best friend was talking about suicide again, and I was really stressed out, and BTW, could he please make sure all his firearms were under lock and key when my boyfriend/his best friend went over to visit him and his girlfriend.

I got back a reply that boiled down to “I am so tired of your selfishness. I have always been there for you. I have always been your friend, and you won’t even have sex with me one time.”

I had to show the email to a friend to make sure my brain wasn’t broken. Yes, he’d told me once previously, months before, that he was attracted to me and wanted to have sex with me. My response had been very clear: I have a boyfriend that I’m not going to cheat on; you have a girlfriend; also I do not find you in the least attractive, and I don’t want to have sex with you. It’s. Never. Going. To. Happen.

He made like he was fine with it, though it took me a couple of months to unclench. Then he dropped that bomb on me. That was the end of our friendship. The boyfriend, who said he was fine with me having sex with his best friend and didn’t understand why I was being mean to him, didn’t last much longer.

I’m still very uncomfortable making friends with single men, which is a pity, because so many of them are such decent human beings.

35

I made friends last year with a girl who I kind of liked. It was okay because I’m moving to grad school and I decided I’m never dating again because of my ex.

We got kind of like this, but I had told her that I liked her because it got worse once I got to know her and I felt like a piece of shit for having a crush on my friend. Then I cut her off for a month until she convinced me it was okay to have a crush on a friend.

She was my best friend, but we got kind of like this. We did things with other people sometimes but it was mostly just us. She got busy due to school and we saw each other less, I had free tickets to a movie we both wanted to see so I invited her. She was excited and said we’d do it during break a couple weeks after I asked her. Then all of a sudden I couldn’t get a hold of her and when I finally got her to talk to me she said we couldn’t be friends anymore because she started a new relationship, because it would be awkward for her. Even though I just wanted to be friends, even if it was just for a couple more months until I moved in July.

I guess after reading this I have to accept that I really am a terrible Nice Guy person. I’m no good and I should have kept her cut off even when she tried to convince me to stay friends with her, but I’m selfish and wanted to have one friend in my life for once. I knew I didn’t deserve friends and this proves it.

Should I kill myself before I become like the Santa Barbara guy? I think I might need to. I’m scared. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I’m evil, I’m at least going to punish myself.

36

I’m sorry, that was all uncalled for and I need to start finding a better way to curb my episodes.

I made friends with her and I did have a crush on her, which developed as we became closer friends. When we started being friends she was clear upfront that she had just been through a breakup so didn’t want to date. I got really worried about Nice Guying her after a few months so I forced myself to tell her I had a crush on her and overreacted about how evil it was to have a crush on her. She really did take the effort to convince me it was fine to be her friend.

I’m just really unstable now because she really was my only friend and now she’s gone. I’m in no mental shape for a relationship and no matter how much I wanted to I refused to let myself try and date her, even after it got pretty clear we were flirting, and I’m moving soon so it was really stupid to try anyway. The problem is I feel kind of mad at her because she outright told me back when she was getting me to be her friend again that she wouldn’t ever get rid of me just because she started dating.

The thing is, I’m jealous of her boyfriend (who I don’t know), and mad for her going back on that “not getting rid of me” thing, but I can’t blame her for cutting me off. I never did anything about the anger, but it’s not like she couldn’t foresee me being jealous. And I’m constantly furious at myself for being mad and jealous because I honestly can’t tell if I’m being a Nice Guy. I want to be able to want her to be happy, but I can’t, and it feels me with self loathing which is made worse because she was the person I could talk to about this stuff so I have no outlet anymore.

I’m really sorry for the outburst about hurting myself everyone. I hope I at least salvaged it as a reasonable attempt to contribute to the thread.

37

While I abhor the typical disingenuous “victim nice guy” I think it has to be said that there are actually plenty of laid back, non-aggressive or player man who also happen to be genuinely nice guys. The two don’t need to be conflated.

Jragon, I’m looking at you. The woman you mention was flirting back at you - so she wasn’t really being honest. I don’t see why the self hate.

There’s almost always a frisson of sexual tension and “what if” in friendships between people of opposite sexes - or orientations - come to that. It can be handled sensibly and honestly, in my experience. I’ve always had male friends in my life. A few have turned out creepy and burdensome. Most are just fine

38

You can get an app that will track the Nice Guys in your area:

Inside Amy Schumer - Hello M’Lady

39

I’m imagining a No Fly List scenario, where, once you’re on, you never get off, and there is no appeal…

40

You let her know, you took ‘no’ for an answer, and you didn’t hang out with her in an attempt to wear her down. You didn’t try to guilt her. You didn’t act like you were entitled to sex with her. By definition, you are not a Nice Guy.

Maybe you need to hear that, so I’ll say it again. Jragon, you are not a Nice Guy.

She wasn’t a very good friend. I’m sure you got along well with her and had a lot of great talks and felt comfortable with her, but when it came down to it, she wasn’t honest with you. In her own way, she used you as badly as so-called Nice Guys use the girls they’re attracted to.

Worrying about the fact that you can’t wish her well right now is not the direction to go. She lied to you. She used you. She hurt you. Feeling jealous of her boyfriend is a bad idea, not because it says something bad about you, but because the poor schmuck is now stuck with a woman who thinks it’s okay to use up a friendship and abandon it as convenience strikes.