Are homosexual males more likely to be pedophiles?

Great Debates
1

In this thread about Orson Scott Card’s opinion about homosexual marriage, someone brought up a point that it is a common misconception that homosexuals are also pedophiles.

Is that really a misconception, or is there some truth to the connection people make with homosexuality and pedophilia? My own experience is that all of the homosexual males I’ve known closely are attracted to young boys more than grown men, but I concede that personal experience is not enough to base such a broad judgement on.

Do any statistics support the homosexual male/pedophilia association?

2

There is no evidence that homosexuals are any more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals.

3

The problem with any such stats: what percentage of adult males are homosexual? While stats about what percentage of children reported sexually abused exist, how many gay males there is very hard to pin down.

It also occurs to me that in many cases where heterosexual men molest girls, often it gets “swept under the rug”. As in, they often molest girls in their own family, who just keep their mouths shut about it. I strongly suspect the official stats of girls sexually molested is far less than the actual number.

4

Let me tell you a little secret, I’m straight and hang with predominantly straight people and if we see a very attractive teenage girl (under the age of 18) the fact that she’s under the age of 18 doesn’t stop us from being attracted to her. Or even making comment about it.

I think for heteros there is more societal suppression that keeps things like this kept to groups of men who aren’t audible to anyone else in public.

When I was 19 amongst my group of friends there was a 25 year old guy who was going out with a 17 year old girl. I said I thought the relationship was a bit inappropriate and that I also probably wouldn’t want to be involved with a teenage socially at age 25. But I also said as 19 year old (at the time that made me a fully legal adult, able to vote, buy land, guns, cigs, beer, join the Army et cetera) I could see myself banging a girl down to say, Soph. status in HS (meaning as young as 15, which would be a 4 year age difference.) But I said I wouldn’t get deeply involved with any HS girl unless she was soon to graduate.

I was an adult male at age 19 and I’m an adult male at age 33. I don’t really see how, since my status as an adult male hasn’t changed I shouldn’t be attracted to some of the same looking girls now as I was then.

Now, from a moral standpoint I would never involve myself with a teenager at this age. I don’t feel it would be an equitable relationship, and I couldn’t condone sex with a teenage at this age because I feel we would be on such different levels of maturity I could use my experience to manipulate her into doing something she wouldn’t normally do.

As it goes though I think the laws in many states which put the age of sexual maturity at 16+ to be okay. Just from my personal code of chivalry or whatever I wouldn’t do it.

I’m still attracted and still look though.

Now as I age I find that women who are 30+ look more attractive than they did when I was 19, but women 25 and under don’t look any less attractive (physically) than they did when I was that age.

Now let’s take a gay relative of mine, we had a long discussion about this matter after the Catholic Church sex scandals.

We both agreed that huge punitive damages against a Priest who say, rested his hand on the thighs of a guy who was like 17 were stupid. I mean, how many times does a guy get arrested/sued for making a move on a girl he’s in an intimate situation with and she slaps his hands and tells him to stop and the guy does stop? Not that often. I don’t think it’s appropriate behavior but it’s not a $1m+ infraction either.

Anyways that was a tangent.

As we discussed the matter he pointed out that just finding teens attractive isn’t a bad thing. He said there were teens he found attractive but he would never act on it because as a guy in his mid 30s he didn’t want to be involved with someone that young. But he said it wouldn’t be pedophilia for him to be involved with say a 17 year old. I agree, again I think it’d be inappropriate but it wouldn’t be pedophilia (nor would the state recognize it as such most of the time.)

Now we’re starting to slowly move to a situation where all my rambling can become a point.

One last thing we need to review is the fact that most pedophiles, or at least most popularized pedophiles, most criminal pedophiles in the news, tend to be pederasts. A pederast is a subtype of a pedophile (if we recognize a pedophile as someone who desires children under the age of sexual maturity) in that a pederast is a male who exclusively desires a male who is not sexually mature.

I think functionally being attracted to little boys is probably different from homosexuality, and isn’t “homosexuality gone too far.” I don’t think that being attracted to a 5 year old girl is heterosexuality going overblown, I think it’s sick, a crime, and the behavior of someone with criminal desires and also mental problems which should be corrected by the state.

Now since most pedophiles we hear about are pederasts, they get lumped in with the gay lobby (and ILGA supporting NAMBLA in the early 90s didn’t help anyone in the gay right’s movement.) And this lumping is in inaccurate and inappropriate.

So when one of us hears an adult gay man saying he finds teenage boys sexually attractive there is a proclivity to inappropriately associate that with pedophilia, imo.

To compare this to something that heterosexuals do a female black comedian was making a joke about the Mary Kay Letourneau thing and she was talking about relationships with teenage boys and say, “but hey, they do look good, and we know that” and the crowd responded positively. If a gay man did the same he’d be booed and possibly face threats on his life, I think this shows a sort of intrinsic prejudice.

5

There are other threads on the SDMB about the same subject, but some facts that are brought out each time:

*There is no reliable study to indicate that gay men are more likely to be pedophiles.

*Most of the “studies” that do indicate this are based on the work of Paul Cameron, a total fanatic and head of the innocuous sounding Family Research Institute and who has a huge following in the publications of the religious right even though his work has been debunked again and again and again (good starting point for Cameron as BS artist).

*Much of the “gays are more likely to be pedophiles” argument is based on the fact that so many male pedophiles molest male children. However, most researchers believe that pedophiles have essentially two sexual orientations: one being their orientation toward other adults (many have perfectly normal sex lives with members of the opposite or same sex) and those directed towards children. The vast majority of pedophiles are completely heterosexual in their relationships with other adults.

*Most ephebophiles (i.e. older men who molest pubescant or post-pubescant male youths) are gay in their adult orientations (or, for males who molest pubescant/post-pubescant girls, most are straight) but ephebophilia has different origins than pedophilia. However, only a tiny percentage of gay men are ephebophiles.

6

And if anyone wants to make the claim “homosexual males more likely to be pedophiles”, then the burden of proof about that most definitely rests with them. I see no such proof. And for the reason I mentioned in my previous post (along with others that I didn’t mention), I seriously question whether a reliable study is possible.

7

As I’ve posted in other threads, we had a thread some time back debating this in some detail, and I called up Dr. Bill Marshall at Queen’s University to ask him. Dr. Marshall is one of the leading experts in the field of deviant sexual behaviour, and has been for years and years. His response was basically what Sampiro said:

  1. Pre-pubescent boys who are molested by men are almost always molested by men who are STRAIGHT in their relationships and attractions to other adults.

  2. Pubescent boys who are molested by men are usually molested by men who are GAY in their relationships and attractions to other adults. But it’s not as overwhelming a majority as per point 1.

  3. Girls molested by men are, if you hadn’t guessed, almost universally molested by men who are straight in their relationships and attractions to other adults.

  4. Women molest children in such small numbers that Dr. Marshall had no confidence in his ability to say if straight or gay women differered in this regard.

I can find cites if asked, but it might take awhile for me to get around to it.

8

Your ideas are intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

9

That sounds like you really do hang round with the wrong people. What age range do ‘young boys’ fall into? If it’s late teens then…yeah, I wouldn’t class that as paedophilia either. Probably inappropriate to act upon it.

10

The answer is no. The reason is becuase no homosexuals are pedophiles. Nor are any heterosexuals. Pedophiles are a sexual orientation in of themselves- and a sick perverted one. They are attracted to very young pre-pubsecent children- not older teens. At that age, secondary sexual characteristics are nearly non-existant, and some pedophiles are attracted to either sex. I would not call a pedophile who was attracted to young boys a “homosexual”- just a pedophile. Those who are sexually attracted to children of that age are seriously mentally ill- and like most serious mental ilnesses- such is far more prevelant in men than women. In fact, women who are real pedophiles are extremely rare.

Now Sampiro uses the term “ephebophile” to refer to those who are attracted to young (& illegal)- but post pubescent- minors. There is a significant number of Gay men who are “chicken hawks”. But then again, many Hetero-men think 17yo cheerleaders are sexy also. Of course- women who find the 16yo delivery boy sexy are hardly rare either. Such a desire is normal- just illegal and immoral. (YMMV- in some juristictions such is perfectly legal if you are married.)

It would not suprise me that as a %- more Gay men are into "ephebophilia’ than Hetero men. Or the other way around.

11

ok… So, if he can make “almost always” statements about categories 1 and 3, how come he can’t tell us some percentages?

I think a more straightforward way to start asking this question would be: what percentage of boys are molested vs. girls? This answer wouldn’t really be the OP’s answer for several reasons: there could be more serial pedophiles in one group than the other (i.e. fewer molesters, but more molestation), and of course while the number of girls molested would be way higher than boys (I’m assuming) simply because there are more heterosexuals period, we’d still need to know how many gay men there are to really do the percentages.

But frankly, I’d rather have hard statistics to back up the strong contention that homosexual men AREN’T as likely to molest children than this namby pamby “oh, well, we can’t really know, I don’t trust any data I hear, and since you can’t prove that they are more likely…”

The fact is, most people have a general idea that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles than straight males, end of story. Namby Pamby isn’t going to combat this belief. Cold hard data refuting it could. So I want cold hard data, not uncomfortable avoidance of data.

Of course, the cold hard data could point the other way: it could show a weak correlation (a strong one I think we can ALREADY refute with the data we have). But still: lets see where the chips fall and work from there. If we are scared becaues we might find that homosexuals are more likely to molest, we shouldn’t be: this information would come out eventually anyway, and the fact will still remain that there is nothing wrong with homosexuals in general even if more of them are pedophiles (we really don’t know what causes either pedophilia OR homosexuality, and just because they correlates slightly STILL wouldn’t prove anything about homosexulity being bad).

I’d rather mount a defense of homosexuals period instead of mounting a defense premised on the idea that they are not any more likely to be pedophiles, and then have that rug be publicaly and nastily pulled out from under me by empirical data.

Same reasoning: I don’t want to base claims of equality for men and women on the argument that women are the same as men. Empirical data could still come out showing that they are different in relevant ways. I don’t think values like political and social equality should ultimately be premised on physical equality or even mental equality. Simply because a) it’s not outside the counds of possibility that it could be later discovered that there ISN’T a physical equality and b) although tempting and seemingly easier, that’s not what should justify political and social equality.

12

I too would like cold, hard data. But, see my post above. It can be difficult to get cold, hard data on this matter.

http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=6151

That would suggest that the percent of me who are gay is at best 2.5%. Yet many gay activist groups like to toss around figures of 10% of men are gay. I tend to think the 2.5% figure is the likely one. The problem here is that if I use the 2.5% figure, my stats would show 4 times greater a frequency for gays being pedophiles than someone who wants to use the 10% figure.

13

I don’t think you could call anyone, gay or straight, who is attracted to someone who is post-pubescent yet “illegal” a pedophile.

A 21 year old man shouldn’t, say, act upon a sexual desire for a 16 year old girl/boy (unless they are married), but I think someone like that is a world away from a 21 year old who has sexual desires for someone who is, say, 7.

Yeah, exactly.

14

According to the Merck manual pedophiles prefer same sex victims at a 2:1 ratio.

Heterosexually oriented males tend to prefer females aged 8 to 10 years old. In most cases the heterosexually oriented pedophile is known to the victim.

Homosexually oriented males prefer boys aged 10 to 13 years old, and typically have a much more casual relationship with their victim, being unknown or only acquainted.

Bisexually oriented pedophiles prefer children that are under 8 years of age.

Pedophilia is described as chronic. The recidivism rate for homosexual pedophilia is the highest of all crimes excepting exhibitionism.

Homosexually oriented pedophiles have a recidivism rate twice as high as heterosexually oriented pedophiles.

The terms “homosexual” and “heterosexual” above aren’t exactly accurate, they just more refer to the gender of the victim. Most pedophiles do not have sexual relationships with adults of any gender, or if they do it is the construct of marriage/other relationships they feel pressured into by society and typically these relationships have a lot of sexual problems as the pedophile has great difficulty performing sexually with an adult partner.

15

:confused:

Am I the only one who thinks that it is more morally objectionable for an adult to marry a 16 year old than it is for an adult to have sex with a 16 year old?

16

What is so objectionable about marrying a 16 year old? Note the post you responded to mentioned a marriage between a 16 year old and a 21 year old, so the age difference isn’t great.

17

Well, generally speaking I also think that it is foolish for a 21 year old to get married as well- that’s still really young for such a thing. But I didn’t flat out say 16 year olds shouldn’t get married- generally I think it’s a horrible idea, but I wouldn’t impose judgement on every individual- different strokes.

But the point I made was that marrying a 16 year old would be more objectionable than having sex with a 16 year old.

If, in the specific relationship, an act of sex proves to have been good fun for all involved and generally a good experience then great!

If, in the specific relationship, a Marriage proves to have been good fun for all involved and generally a good experience then great!

If, in the specific relationship, an act of sex proves to have been a mistake and generally a poorly informed decision, well that just adds to the list of mistakes a person accumulates by the age 16.

If, in the specific relationship, a Marriage proves to have been a mistake and generally a poorly informed decision, well then you’ve got a 16 year old stuck in a whole new life bound by contract where “just moving on” is suddenly much more complicated. For an adult to “lay claim” to someone so young and inexperienced strikes me has highly unfair. The 16 year old has a lot of growing and discover ahead. -again this is “generally speaking”.

18

That’s useful data, Martin – all from the Merck Manual? Source for the other stuff if it’s a compilation of sources? (That’s not a cry of “Cite” but a wish for knowing where to find the data if I ever need it).
A question for thread participants – we’ve had a few examples cited over the years of people who are predominantly sexually attracted to underage people – either ephebophiles/hebephiles or true pedophiles – who sublimate their sexual urges and get their enjoys from socially acceptable interaction with kids. What’s your emotional reaction to them? Suppose you know that Fred who coaches the kids’ swim team goes home and masturbates to the image of the boys in swimsuits – but is resolved never to touch them sexually. How would you feel about him?

19

Even a much older man than yourself who is attracted to an 18-year-old girl is not a pedophile.

20

About as good as a reformed alcoholic (to use an oft abused metaphor). I’d certain commend his resolution and intent but I still wouldn’t give him keys to the drinks cabinet. Nor should he be asking for them.