Are Humans really Apex predators?

[DrFidelius]

By enslavement

[Malthus]

@DrFidelius

By enslavement

Well, they didn’t totally enslave us. It just seems that way, when we have to take them for a walk, and work to pay their vet bills.

But seriously - the similarities between humans and wolves made a certain amount of symbiosis possible.

National Geographic

[AK84]

@Malthus

As an aside, it is fascinating to read Jim Corbett’s books on hunting human-eating predators, such as tigers, in India (for years, he was the guy that often got called on to exterminate dangerous human-eating animals). Fact is that even tigers, who are of course well able to kill and eat people, generally don’t. According to Jim, what causes tigers to turn to eating people is almost invariably some disability or injury that prevents them from hunting other prey (often, porcupine quill injuries). The reason: hunting people is very, very risky, a strategy only used when nothing else is possible - because humans can, and will, hunt down such predators (in these examples, by calling on Jim!).

Any animal can attack a human if sufficiently provoked and a desperate carnivore might try and eat us.

However, most unprovoked attacks are from animals whose interactions with humans are in the regular course limited, like Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars. Savannah animals like Lions for instance, are much more wary of us, since they know that these creatures attack in packs, can kill from a distance and never tire.

So the miracle in the story of Daniel was that the Tiger’s dens were closed for maintainance that day.

[Velocity]

@bomberswarm2

If a human went one on one with a bear or a lion we’d be killed every time. The only reason we’re the master species is because we have artificial weapons (unlike something like a snake’s venom or a tiger’s teeth and claws which are pedigree weapons).
In fact I’m amazed humans didn’t go extinct 10,000 years ago before we invented weapons.
Should we really be called Apex predators?

Think about it from the opposing perspective. Imagine if octupi had the power to put humans in zoos, in cages, had technology that basically controlled the world, and had the means to exterminate humans if they ever pleased. We’d call them Apex predators for sure, wouldn’t we - even though a human one on one fighting an octopus with brawn vs. brawn only would probably win?

[Mighty_Girl]

@John_Mace

But we also absorbed some of the Neanderthal population into our own, so they didn’t get completely wiped out in that sense. The idea of two “master species” co-existing on the planet is an interesting idea, and more the subject of speculation than science.

Do speculate.

[coremelt]

@Malthus

As others have stated, weapon use predates our species, and is pretty hardwired. Even moreso, we are a social species, and so have a big advantage over solitary predators - our direct competitors would likely have been wolf-packs, which we somewhat resemble, in being (i) social and (ii) dangerous.

Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals. However our opposable thumb, shoulder optimised for throwing and language centre in the brain is our unbeatable combo.

[MrDibble]

@coremelt

Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals.

Actually, I think current thinking is that our most direct competition would be the advanced hominin lines that are now extinct.

[Blake]

@AK84

However, most unprovoked attacks are from animals whose interactions with humans are in the regular course limited, like Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars. Savannah animals like Lions for instance, are much more wary of us, since they know that these creatures attack in packs, can kill from a distance and never tire.

1. Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears, Wild Boars *are *savanna animals.
2. With the possible exception of some bear species, all those species have far *more *interaction with humans than lions do.
3. Do you have any evidence that lions attack humans less than Leopards, Tigers, Mountain lions, Bears or Wild Boars?

[coremelt]

@MrDibble

Actually, I think current thinking is that our most direct competition would be the advanced hominin lines that are now extinct.

Yes, extinct precisely because we were more bad ass and out competed them and/or interbred with them.

[MrDibble]

@Blake

Bears […] *are *savanna animals.

Bears, Blake?

[MrDibble]

@coremelt

Yes, extinct precisely because we were more bad ass and out competed them and/or interbred with them.

… or pure dumb luck.

[Blake]

@MrDibble

Bears, Blake?

Hell yeah. The most dangerous bear in the world is primarily a savanna dweller. And the common brown bear, the American black bear and several other species are found in any savanna ecosystems within their range.

Bears are incredibly adaptable. It would be astonishing if they weren’t happy in savannas.

[DrFidelius]

@MrDibble

… or pure dumb luck.

Seriously.

Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes.

[Blake]

@DrFidelius

Seriously.

Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes.

No, that’s an exaggeration.

[coremelt]

@DrFidelius

Seriously.

Most of the explanations for why anything historical worked out as it did are post-hoc rationalizing of basically random outcomes.

Evolution isn’t random. Language, opposable thumb and shoulder optimised for throwing were the killer “features” that made H.Sapiens win. I don’t believe any of the competing Hominids had all three of those. Neanderthals are thought to have had significantly smaller language processing centres.

[MrDibble]

@Blake

Hell yeah. The most dangerous bear in the world is primarily a savanna dweller.

Huh - learn something new every day - I knew about sun & Himalayan black bears, didn’t really know this one existed, let alone was as dangerous as it is. Tigers get all the press. Well, leopards too, nowadays

[puzzlegal]

None of the big predators routinely preys on humans. I suspect this is largely because most of the big predators learn to hunt from their mothers, or their pack, and mommy tigers in the habit of eating people don’t get to raise a lot of additional litters.

But even house cats are relatively conservative in what they hunt as adults. The ones who learned to hunt mice as kittens are less likely to go after birds and vice versa.

[Malthus]

@coremelt

Well in Africa our direct competitors would have been chimpanzees and other monkeys, and possibly hyenas, both of which are highly social pack animals. However our opposable thumb, shoulder optimised for throwing and language centre in the brain is our unbeatable combo.

• Chimps aren’t really human competitors (nor are they monkeys). Humans are adapted, basically, for long-distance endurance (two-legged locomotion is part of that). Chimps have a wholly different habitat; much more arboreal.

• Hyenas, maybe. They are scavengers, but early hominids may have been also.