What if: No humans or other primates

Some scientists believe that in 70,000 BCE, humanity nearly became extinct.

Now, for the purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that all humans and other primates died out.

How would the world be different?
What creature if any would evolve to fill humanity’s niche?

Lions? They are cooperative, but they don’t have hands or our endurance.

Wolves? They have our endurance and cooperation, but they don’t have an equivilent to our hand.

Dolphins? they are very intelligent and social, they can swim for long distances. but their snouts and flippers are far less dexterious then our hands. Also, they live in the water so they’d find it hard to develop fire-based technology.

Octopii? They have big brains and manual dexterity, but they are solitary, short-lived and they are even more trapped in the fire-unfriendly water than dolphins as they can’t breathe air.

Elephants? They have our endurance, and communal nature, and debatably, they are really intelligent. and their trunk can fulfill a similar purpose to our hands. African forest elephants are pretty small, so I don’t think their size or energy requirements will be a permanent setback. I think they’ld be the most likely.

Some longshots:Horses? Kangaroos? Ants? Rats?

There would be a lot less cars on the non-existent roads, for one thing. :wink:

In 70k years, or over time? Most of the animals would fill humanities niche of being a top predator…but none of them would have adopted technology or tool use (beyond the most basic, such as your elephant using a tree trunk to dig something up with, or the octopus using some basic ‘tool’ to dig out prey).

Lions what? Would still be around and going strong? Probably. Top predator (filling that niche that humans filled)? Yeah, again most likely, at least in their somewhat limited range (which might have been a lot larger without humans squeezing them out in the last 10k years or so). Would be a sentient, technological civilization? Not a chance, IMHO. There was no driving reason for lions to evolve technology (they already have speed and those claw thingies).

Again, wolves what? Still running about and being successful? Most likely. Top predator? Again, probably. Evolve sentience and technology? No way…why would they?

I can’t conceive of any circumstance for dolphins even developing basic tool creation…they were pretty much unchanged for millions of years because they were so successful at what they did.

Again, why would they NEED to develop technology or a technology oriented civilization? What circumstance would push them on that path?

Same with the rest (the herbivores especially I’m not seeing developing technology or a technological civilization). Humans (using that term to encompass all the myriad species both in our direct decent and those branches that died out at various times) were, IMHO, a fluke. You just don’t see other animals, even other branches of primates (with a few exceptions) who orient towards technology. Oh, lots of animals use simple tools, and some even make simple tools…but they don’t NEED tools. Humans and pre-human ancestors (both those branches that survived and those that didn’t) pretty much developed hand in hand (er, so to speak ;)) with tool use. It was central to our development…they have found examples of tool use back well over a million years (I believe they are tentatively saying 1.7 million years plus). A MILLION YEARS of tool use and tool development that shows how dependent we were and are on tools and tool use, and how central it is to being what we are…that’s a hell of a long time. No other species developed like we did.

So, my uninformed answer is that none of them would fill the niche that humans did, if by that you mean a technology oriented top predator, able to expand to every type of environment on earth and out compete all other top predators in just about every kind of environment, and have a technological civilization.

JMHO.

-XT

You appear to fundamentally misunderstand not just how how evolution operates, but what evolution is.

Evolution is just a process of change. It’s not directed and it doesn’t have a goal. Humans aren’t more evolved than any other species, or better than any other species. Humanity isn’t something that evolution works towards. We are one short-lived evolutionary experiment. There is absolutely no reason to believe that anything remotely like us would have evolved had our lineage become extinct.

Ecological niches are terms used to describe the portion of productivity space that the animal exploits. A nice doesn’t have any objective existence. If the nice isn’t occupied then it simply fails to exists. Just because a niche *potentially *exists, that doesn’t mean that anything is going to fill it. The bat niche, for example, was free for thousands of millions of years, and nothing filled it. The niche itself was created by bats, it wasn’t some sort of yawning vacuum that demanded filling. So nothing would occupy humanity’s niche. If humans didn’t exist then the niche would cease to exist. The ecological roles of humans would have been filled by multiple other species, just as it was before our species came into existence. Baboons, elephants, meerkats, sundry birds and so forth would all exploit the available energy that wasn’t being exploited by humans.

I’m also not sure that you appreciate how short 70, 00 years in in evolutionary terms. In 70, 00 years nothing has changed. 70, 00 years ago humans were still humans, lions were still lions, baboons were still baboons. Evenif evolution worked the way you think it does, you are not going to get radical changes that turn lions into people in 70, 000 years. 70 million years, maybe just, 70, 00 years, no way.

It would be largely unrecognisable. While the gross lanforms would still exist, the ecosystems and climate would be so radicaly altered that I doubt that even most ecologists would recognise where they were if simply plonked down on such a world.

With no human hunting and no human fire, the extent of forest would be radically different. The elephants and other megafauna would remain the primary biotic contraint on forest and grassland distribution. Much of Africa would remain a forest-savanna mosaic. The Sahara would presumably r4emian savanna woodland rather than desert, With no human influence trees would be free to repopulate North America following the glacial retreat, and most of the continent would be forest. Australia and Madagascar would have remained largely covered in rainforest and monsoon forest, just as they were before humans arrived.

And of course the megafaunal species associated with these ecosystems would have remained. North America would still have its camels and hunting bears and cheetahs and horses and ground sloths. Australai would still have its short-faced kangaroos and diprotodons. Madagascar would still have its giant lemurs and tortoises and lion-sized mongooses. Europe would still have its elephants and rhinos and lions.

The extent to which humans have altered the ecology of the world, and through that the climate, is only just being understood now. It’s appearing more and more like every major ecological and climatic shift since the last ice age has either been caused or exacerbated by humanity. Remove humans and the planet would b unrecognisable.

Octopii? What the fuck is an Octopius?

The same, of course, can be said for hominoids.

Nope. That idea pretty much died 50 years ago. Hominids developed our basic body plan long before we were using tools. IOW our toll use was permitted by our physical development, not the other way around. We are physically basically the same as Australopithecines, who didn’t use tools. All the major changes have been mental.

Very interesting replies, thank you.

I just want to clarify, I didn’t mean what would evolve in 70,000 years, I just selected the Toba Catastrophe as the point of divergance/human extinction.

Point of order–in Nature, species move to exploit environmental niches.

With no Humans, it is indeed possible that another species would have evolved to fill that niche.

Raccoons?

So if all of the camels died out sometime back, something would eventually have become camel-ish? I’m curious.

Large desert plant eaters, yes.

With humps? They’re the important part. :smiley:

I’m not sure that there is an environmental niche for skyscraper-building, coal-burning, internet-browsing creatures.

Whatever environmental niche proto-humans evolved to fill could have been filled just fine without the intelligence or tools.

other than the obvious spread of natural environments with the lack of man-made structures, what other effects do humans have? Blake mentioned that the climate would be different, in what way? what about size? would the top predators increase in size with the bigger room and lack of hunters? might they approach dinosaur sizes with nothing to check them?

70 KY is too short a time for another as-intelligent species to develop. Man took millions of years to evolve. If you’re looking for a species that might rise to take the place of man, otters seem a pretty good bet since they use tools.

umm

Not to take away from your otherwise excellent post, I want to expand on this and correct a few errors.

It’s not a bad analogy to say that Australopithecines had chimp heads on human bodies. An oversimplification for sure, but it gets many of the major points right.

But to be more precise, Australopithecines were fully bipedal apes, with brains about the size of a chimp’s (although maybe slightly differently organized), dentition more like humans, arm to leg ratios closer to chimps than humans, and hands with some features of both chimps and humans. We don’t have evidence of stone tool use, but considering the wide range of tools used by chimps, it’s almost certain that Australopithecines used tools of some sort. There was generally more sexual dimorphism than found in humans, and the maturation rate of the young was much more chimp-like than human-like.

And, of course, there were many different species in the genus Australopithecus spanning ~2M years, so I surely made some errors in the above description if applied across the entire genus. Generally, I’m thinking about A. africanus or A. afarensis.

Except that there is some evidence that some of the Australopithecine species did (well, [maybe](Australopithecus afarensis)…it was probably Homo habilis) use tools, if not make them…and that this pushes the timeline back for possible tool use even further back.

The ‘hand in hand’ thing was a joke, and you are right about that…we had upright postures and hands before we became dependent on tools…and certainly before we had large brains. What I was trying to say was that we have been dependent on tool use for millions of years, and no other species, not even species that are closely related to us (like the great apes…or even the grape apes) have. We are pretty much unique in that, and I don’t see any other species being driven evolutionarily towards becoming intertwined with technology or a technologically driven culture or society. None of the animals mentioned in the OP had any inclination towards tool use (well, beyond the most basic ‘use stick found on ground to move something or get some food item’), even those who had been around for millions or 10’s of millions of years. A lion or a wolf already have all of the weapons and abilities then need to be successful hunters…evolution honed them towards that. No tools needed for them to be top predators and be successful.

It all gets back to what niche we are talking about having some animal fill in the absence of not only humans but all related primate species. Some of those animals could fill some of the niches humans would vacate, but the circumstances and unique physiology of humans that lead us down a path towards being a tool making/using civilization…I don’t see that happening again, at least not in any of the species described in the OP.

-XT

But that would imply you wouldn’t see it happen on another planet, either.

Certainly rodents (rats were mentioned in the OP) have the potential. There are relatively closely related to primates. But I see no reason NOT to assume that any animal species has the potential, given enough time, to evolve into an intelligent form comparable to humans.

Are we aiming for sentience or a highly advanced civilization? There is a difference. I can see any number of animal species eventually becoming intelligent enough to form a basic society, but I think that our rapid advancement has been largely a fluke.

Why any? For two billion years Earth’s biosphere got along with no sentient species.

If some non-primate species had to evolve into Homo alter, I would give odds to the raccoons. Fully binocular vision, useful manipulation-paws.

Not at all…in all the vast universe I’m pretty sure some other species out their at some time in the past and/or at some time in the future (or right now for all we know) has developed sentience and a technology based civilization. But considering the list of species the OP presented I don’t see any of them as potential tool making, technology oriented species because none of them seemed to have any inclination in those directions. None of them needed to be tool users to be successful. Why would a lion or wolf need to invent a chopping implement, since they have claws and teeth designed to strip meat from their prey? Why would an elephant need something like a spear? I suppose somewhere way down the line evolutionary pressures might have shifted any species along the path to become tool makers…stranger things have happened after all. Look at whales and dolphins for example.

Sure, rodents would be a good choice. Maybe bears or even pigs, given the right evolutionary pressure. Given enough time and weird enough circumstances, anything is possible, as we can see looking at the history of life on this planet. But none of the species listed in the OP have any sort of indication of an orientation towards tool making or even tool use beyond the most basic, so to me if you want to avoid going off on complete flights of fancy about what MIGHT happen a billion years down the pike without humans, that’s got to factor into the discussion. YMMV.

-XT

And, of course, there are the otters . . .