Ok, I was watching the recent entertainingly blasphemous South Park episode in which Satan had a new boyfriend instead of Saddam Hussein. Gay guy name of Chris. Two Christian co-workers watching with me engage in following bit of conversation:
“Why’s that guy in hell? He seems pretty nice…”
“Du-uh. He’s gay!”
“Oh, of course…”
Anyway, it got me thinking. How do other fundies out there treat homosexuals? Do Jewish fundamentalists stone them, or at least consider them impure? I seem to remember a death sentence for homosexuality in Saudia Arabia. Is it part of Muslim faith too? Does the equivalent of http://www.godhatesfags.com exist in those faiths as well?
Perhaps the creators of South Park will get placed under a death sentence by Saddam Hussein? Or does he not have the power to issue fatwas like Khomeini did?
Oh, and most importantly, if anyone is a member of these faiths on this board, if intollerance towards homosexuals exists in your religion, do you think it is justified?
Wow. Sodom invented homosexuality!
I particularly liked this hadith:
“When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.”
Heh. Instead of asking if the earth moved for your partner as well, a homosexual can rest assured that heaven itself shook during their pleasure.
The Islamic view of homosexuality in practice differs greatly from the view expressed in the Koran.
In terms of dogma, homosexuality is a serious sin under Islamic law, punishable by death. But throughout the Middle East, male homosexual activity is both widespread and (usually) winked at, especially when the participants are teenage boys.
Under Islamic law, daughters are treated largely as property (just as they frequently were in the Old Testament), and a daughter who isn’t a virgin is considered tainted- her father can probably NEVER find her a husband, and worse, she’s brought dishonor to the family. She can be killed, and often is. And the boy who deflowered her has ALSO committed a capital crime- the angry father can and often DOES have the boy killed.
In other words, for a teenage Moslem boy, screwing around with a girl can and will get you killed! Despite the prohibitions against homosexuality, an Arab or Iranian teenage boy can and does get his jollies by playing around with other boys. His parents and the community aren’t overjoyed about it, but they tend to look the other way, viewing it as a phase the boys will snap out of in time.
Anyone know anything about them? I’ve heard of problems with women being beaten up if they pray anywhere near the Wailing Wall, so I assume these guys take their religion pretty seriously…
Yeah, Orthodox Judaism doesn’t take a kind view toward homosexuality. However, they’re definitely not going to kill you if you’re gay. Anecdotal example: a dear friend of mine, who grew up in a very, very religious Orthodox household, is gay. He’s been out for years, and although his parents had trouble with it at first, they haven’t disowned him. But they also don’t pretend to understand him - they’ve actually gotten matchmakers to try and fix him up with a nice Jewish girl! (I was with him once when someone called him about going to meet a girl, he just about lost it.)
In Israel, there are no laws that I know about that outlaw homosexuality, and gay peeps are expected to serve in the army, same as their straight countrymen. I guess you could say that Judaism is more libertarian when it comes to homosexuality - although many disapprove, few are going to make your sexuality their business.
Well, what Israel allows may not be the same thing as what the Orthodoxy allows…
I mean, Christian Fundamentalists justify their persecution of homosexuals by quoting OT law about lying with men as with women (well, that, and a little use of that sexist Paul guy). If Jewish orthodoxy allows it, how can Christians possibly use Jewish laws to justify their hate crimes? Wouldn’t the Jews know their laws better then a Christian would?
Yes, Haredi Jews see homosexuality mush in the same way that Christian fundamentalists do.
However, Haredi Jews don’t really see themselves as part of society, Israeli or otherwise. They do not believe that “such things” can happen with one of theirs, and see homosexuality as a neccesary result of partying, drinking, eating pork and not studying Torah. Thus they try to suppress it when it appears in their homes, but could generally care less about the rest of the world.
Just to throw another religion into the mix, I recall that the Dalai Lama has been criticised for his (negative) views on homosexuality.
I believe his views are more in the realms of mild disapproval, than “burn in hell, sinner!”, but you have to consider that as Dalai Lama, he speaks for his faith (or at least Tibetan Buddhism) as a whole.
Modern Orthodox Jews that I have talked to seem to view homosexuality as a violation of the commandments; regrettable, but not a trick by Satan to undermine society. But please note: Judaism is not concerned about “saving the souls of sinners” but about fulfilling God’s laws. Thus, there is no imperative to try to get homosexuals to change their orientation, any more than there would be an imperative to try to get pork-eaters to change their diet.
That’s probably different from the more extreme right-wing fundamentalists, of course; but, as already noted, they’ve usually separated themselves from general society altogether.
It’s not just Orthodox Judaism. The Jewish Theological Seminary of America, a Conservative seminary, will not ordain homosexuals. (At least male – I have no specific knowledge about policy towards lesbians). From what I’ve been told, the seminary essentially has a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.
Second anecdotal example: My dear friend Taffy is a lesbian. Her parents keep calling her about the nice Jewish boys the matchmaker has found for her. Taffy does not take this well. So at least in her case, the parents don’t condemn her for it, but like Kyla’s friend, they don’t really understand it either.
When I was younger I worked in the Middle East, way out in the boonies, prospecting. One evening I walked past one of the tents in camp and a big burley truck driver with a huge handle bar moustache was locked in a passionate embrace plunging his tongue down the throat of the kitchen boy. About a half dozen arabs were sitting around shrieking and cheering and clapping and enjoying the performance. A few weeks later one of the bosses fired the kitchen boy because word got out he had a dose of clap and he was no longer welcome in our kitchen tent. I never discussed homosexuality with the locals but I noticed some of them got pretty flirtaceous and touchy feely with me when they wanted something or were in trouble. I asked about their courtship traditions. Apparently the men worked hard all their lives and save money, and when they were in their thirties, if they were lucky, they might have saved enough to buy a teenage girl from her father as their wife. It was not unusual to see an ancient old man with a teenage wife, sometimes purchased and imported from the moslem community in India.
Second anecdote. I recently worked with a man who had held an administrative position with a company in Saudi Arabia. One of the American employees was arrested in a homosexual embrace with an arab on a rooftop. The case went to local court in front of Islamic judges and was a death penalty case. The holy men, in their wisdom, dismissed the case because there were no witnesses of, or evidence of, anal penetration and therefore the abominable act had not been proven.
Slight hijack…
I heard Dick Cheney’s daughter is openly gay. Is this true?
What will all the fundies who were supporters of Bush do about that? Most of them think Gore is the Anti-Christ.
Or does he not have the power to issue fatwas like Khomeini did?