Cite?
Well, heck, if you have the cash to waste on buying a meaningless title, you are probably pretty wealthy, and that is what really makes you upper class these days. (Well, that and caring about being seen as upper class, and so taking on the relevant mannerisms and customs as well as the manors. But if you care enough to buy the title you probably care enough to adopt the mannerisms and customs too.)
Ideally, though, to be considered a proper member of the gentry didn’t you need to have been born into that class? IOW, it wasn’t just that you possessed the land and the money, but also how you acquired it.
It is true that the gentry of the British Isles, strictly speaking, weren’t in the aristocracy.
OTOH, their counterparts on the Continent usually made up the untitled nobility, and as such belonged to the aristocracy of those countries. Typically, although not always, the noble status of these families was reflected by a prefix such as “von” or “de” in their names.
Scottish feudal barons are pretty much the same thing as English lords of the manor. People who own a bunch of land and have gotten the title of Baron because of it. You might want to call them gentry titles, but not noble titles. They are, however, legitimate for sale. The Scottish equivalent of an English Baron is “Lord of Parliament”
As for Irish titles, you can buy Irish manoral titles the same way you can buy English manoral titles, but not Irish baronies.
At Baronage of Scotland - Wikipedia it says that Scottish baronies today are “currently treated as noble titles of less than Peerage rank.” So they are defined as noble, but not peerage. It is sort of in the middle of everything. But i dont think it is attached to land anymore.
http://baronytitles.com/index.php?page=what-is - so the price of 750.000 pounds are not for an aristocratic title, but only a sort of lordship of the manor? I read somewhere that Scottish baronial titles were the only noble title you could buy. In the same link: “Scottish Barony Title is the only title world-wide that is a noble title”.
I saw Manorial Auctioneers sold the Barony of Knockgraffon in Ireland, so i belive that you can buy Irish Baronial titles as well.
Well, people invent baronial titles, and sell them, so it’s true in a sense that you can buy them. But they are entirely spurious.
Scottish feudal tenure was abolished in 2004 with the Abolition of Feudal Tenure Act (2000). The act says that the dignity still does exist and in transferrable. See:
So until 2004, yes, a Scottish feudal barony was a noble title that could be transferred by sale. Afterwards, though, even though it’s still a term of dignity, it’s no longer attached to anything. You can buy it, but it’s not really a noble title anymore.
Irish feudal tenure was abolished in 1662. Here’s a copy of the law.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/tenuresact.htm
So if you buy a Baronial title (like the Barony of Knockgraffon) it will not be a real title at all? So if you get a bunch of documents with the purchase they will probably be fake?
Thank you for the information. So a Scottish Baronial title today (after 2004) is not a noble title anymore but more like a sort of lord-of-the-manor-but-without property? Its just a title, but with no real meaning? And people still buy therm for 70.000 pounds? Insane!!
But i see Irish baronies for sale (the Manorial Auctioneers had the Barony of Knockgraffon for example) what do you get if you buy somethng like this? Is it a purely fake title, or could it be a real feudal title/dignity? But it is not noble?
And a last question (sorry asking a lot): I guess it is completely impossible to buy a noble title today in any way, but can you inherit a noble title from an aristocrat if you are not related?
Well,it’s more than a Lord of the Manor title, I think, because the Lord Lyon’s Office will recognize it and say you’re allowed to put a little helmet over your coat of arms.
It’s fake. You get a piece of paper with your name on it saying you’re the Baron of Knockgraffon. I could probably get that cheaper for you.
First of all, the actual buying and selling of peerages and honours in Britain is illegal under the “Honours (Prevention of Abuses) Act 1925”, just so you have the law at hand.
As far as inhering a title from someone you’re not related to, I don’t think it can be done in the British Isles, but I think it’s allowed under some Continental systems.
Remember though that places like France and Germany and other places where there are a bunch of possibly inheritable noble titles floating around are republics, whose attitude is going to be “So, you’re the Duke of X. How nice for you,” France lets you add it to your official name, as, I think, does Germany, and Austria doesn’t even let people have von as part of their last name.
The only European monarchy that actually still recognizes noble titles as far as I know is Spain, and those aren’t inheritable except by a relation.
Do you think it is a market for selling and buying for example German noble titles?
About Scottish baronial titles:
Well,it’s more than a Lord of the Manor title, I think, because the Lord Lyon’s Office will recognize it and say you’re allowed to put a little helmet over your coat of arms.
Ok i understand. It is a bit more noble than a lord of the manor (who only is a property title) but basically just a title of honour you buy. But wikipedia defines it as a title of nobility, still now after the 2004-act, but that is not true i guess?
About Irish Baronial titles:
At this page: http://lawiki.org/lawwiki/The_titles...uy_nobility%3F it says that:
“The situation is more complicated in Ireland, because the term ‘barony’ is used both in the sense of the English feudal barony (similar to a lordship of the manor), and in the Scottish sense of a barony by tenure. In addition, there is no Irish equivalent of the Scottish Lord Lyon to keep an eye on the use of baronial arms. As a result, buying an Irish barony is particularly risky.”
It sounds like some Irish baronial titles are real, some just manorial, and i guess a lot just plain fake. But does it exist baronial titles in Ireland like thoose in Scotland? And you can be lucky (guess it is a small chance) to purchase something real that makes you a “Baron” like the Scottish titles do?
And if people buy a fake title (like a fake “Baron of Somewhere”), can they still get it on their passports, official documents, sign letters as The Much Honoured Baron of Somewhere (and wifes use Lady Somewhere in the same way) or will that be stopped since the makers of passports etc. sees it is a fake title?
About titles in other countries: Do you think it is a market for selling and buying for example German noble titles?
Sorry double-post, got it right the last time.
You get a title which has been recently invented, for the purpose of selling it. It may be more complicated than that, and I am no expert in these matters, but effectively there are very few pre-1662 feudal baronies extant in Ireland.
My understanding of the word “nobility” would include the Barons of the Irish peerage but would not include the feudal barons. Not that such distinctions matter.
You’re going to have to talk to somebody who knows more than Scottish law than I do. As far as I know, it’s still a noble title, but I’m not sure if, after 2004, the Court of the Lord Lyon will recognize the transfers. Here’s their website, with contact information, including their e-mail, if you want to write and ask them. It’s probably a question they get a lot of.
These seem to be the most recent decisions regarding the barony question:
That I’m not sure. I don’t think so, though.
A person can, generally, as long as they’re not doing it to commit fraud, change their name to whatever they want. So John Smith could change his name to “Baron Smith”, and if he did that, his first name would legally be “Baron”. And, of course, you can ask your friends or family to call you whatever you want. But there’s not, generally, any legal significance to it. If you were actually trying to pass yourself off as false nobility, you’d probably be discovered and humiliated, and if you used it to somehow gain a monetary advantage, you might be liable under fraud rules.
I’m not sure. I’d be very skeptical if you saw one for sale, though, and check with attorneys before you buy one. I also want to remind you that if you did buy a noble title, it would likely not give you any advantages at all. If you have enough money to buy any sort of title like that, then your wealth will provide you with more social credibility than holding some defunct title from the Holy Roman Empire would. Nobility isn’t really that highly regarded in most places anymore; and certainly not in modern Europe.
What about Scottish feudal barons, the title recognized by the Lord Lyns Office? Do you consider them nobility?
About the Scottish baronial titles i know understand what you mean! The question is not wheter the title has noble ra nk or not, it is defined as noble, but the question is about if a person buys one now (after the 2004-act) if they will be defined as having a noble title, because the Lyon Office may not recognize the new holder. Aaaahhh, intersting. Thank you for the internetadress, and might contact them.
I have read a bit more about the Irish Baronies and what i can understand is that i is a tiny chance that a barnial title is real and that you get a real title, BUT most, almost everyone is fake.
I understand that a person can change his/her name to what they want, this is the basic idea behind the internett-scams “buy a title for 1000 pounds - become duchess today”.
But i guess that it is a grey area if someone purchases a fake baronial title through for example the Manorial Auction like the Barony of Knockgraffon that you pay a lot for and recieve a great deal of historical documents. Proving a baronial title like that being fake is hard work even for a specialist and even if it lacks documentation of the barony existing today it is still hard to prove.
In that situation it would be easier to fake it. I guess if they want it on their passport and creditcard they will get it because the people arranging it will not be able to prove that it is fake.
Well, I don’t think legitimate nobles’ titles are on their passports and almost certainly not on their credit card. The Earl of Pembroke’s credit card doesn’t say “The Earl of Pembroke” on it. It says “William Herbert”.
Hahaha good point, i guess the fact that a title is on a creditcard is a sign that it is not real!
But i am a bit suprised over that you all define the Lord of the Manor-title as totally non-prestige. I understand that it is a bit pointless since it is attached to a manor that you dont own but is a real feudal title, and aren`t the other noble titles (dukes, earls, etc.) also pure titular and has no actual power that follows the title?
How much land do people get if they buy a Lordship of the Manor? Is it a big piece of land or just a tiny garden?