No land at all. Just the title that formerly attached to a piece of land, and whose only significance was the land to which it is now no longer attached.
It’s an empty title - like buying the mineral rights to the White House, you couldn’t do anything with it if you wanted to. But all peerages do not, in themselves, confer title to any land, which has to be bought and sold in the usual way.
What? I belived that you got a small property with the title, Manorial Auctioneers talks about mineral rights. So a lordship of the manor does not make you a landowner of any kind?
That is sort of my point. I understand that a Lord of the Manor-title is an empty title, but is not all titles today kind of empty? The titles of nobility does not after what i understand give a person real actual power og advantaches anymore, it is just a title. So if such an empty title (like duke or baron) make you nobility, shouldent a lord of the manor-title at least make you gentry?
I understand that it has lower rank than the nobility of course. Maybe it is the fact that it can be bought and sold?
Minor nitpick: usually, if you are entitled to bear a coat of arms you automatically “get” the helmet. OTOH, depending on the country/tradition as applicable, such details as whether you can show the helmet in profile or front view, and whether the visor is open or closed, do depend on your rank. Similarly, if you are noble you may usually add a coronet to the helmet, or substitute it for the helmet.
But, are people with a Scottish baron-title today defined as noble?
No. A few manorial titles have what are called “manorial incidents” attached to them; mineral rights, the right to hold a market, and so on. All these incidents are due to expire in 2013.
So the only thing you get is the title of being lord of a manor that does no longer exist or that you dont own? I belived that you got the property the manor stood on, only a garden if so, but clearly you get no land.
I would absolutely say that people who today has the title Lord of the manor belongs to the gentry class, at least after the british definition. If you define for example a Duchess as nobility/peerage just because of her title (that dosent either come with any special real power or land, it is just a title) i would say it is no doubt that someone holding a gentry-title is gentry? Do you understand my point?
Yes. It’s like this. You ever watch Dallas back when it was on? That was the soap opera about the rich Texas family, called the Ewings, that were always backstabbing each other. Anyway, their family mansion was a ranch called Southfork.
Well, anyway, the head of the Ewing family was Jock Ewing. So, lets say one day, JR comes in to talk to him and says, “Daddy, I know we’re rich, but I have an idea that’ll make us even richer! You own Southfork, which means if you wanted, you might call yourself ‘Lord of Southfork’. Well, why don’t you sell that to somebody? You’re not actually selling somebody Southfork, you’re just selling them the right to call themselves ‘Lord of Southfork’.” So, Jock does it, the Ewings get even richer, and somebody else gets to walk around calling himself “Lord of Southfork” because why not.
And that’s a Lord of the Manor title.
From reading this thread, it appears not, particularly when the 2013 law kicks in. Similarly as with many Americans who order coats of arms sold in the backs of magazines or on the Internet, whether it has any legal validity is of only secondary importance. What they’re after is an association with some historical status that they perceive to be attractive in some way.
With considerably more authenticity, many families on the Continent, now living in republics, pass down the heritage of noble titles they once held; indeed, in Germany titles of rank such as Graf (Count) or Freiherr (Baron) now form part of the family name, preceding the von or zu; notwithstanding, these families are now in every legal sense commoners.
But Americans who order coat of arms from a catalogue is really a scam, pretending to be something their not. A Scottish Baron-title is a real documented title. What is the 2013-law?
Yes, in countries like Germany titles of nobility are not taken seriously, people have more of a who-the-hell-cares-attitude;)
I misspoke; what I meant was where Captain Amazing says that all remaining “manorial incidents”, or peculiar individual legal powers and privileges that belong to the holders of certain manors, expire. are due to expire in 2013:
Most people probably do say that, but for those who belong I think it’s like a self-defined cool crowd. The tend to associate with and marry one another; for example, the former Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg* is married to a member of the Bismarck family, and his mother is a member of the noble Eltz family. And some families, like the Guttenbergs, have managed to hold on to ancestral castles and other wealth. In any case, a certain modicum of social prestige continues to attach to noble families despite the fact that their members are now ordinary citizens before the law, and this is especially true for those whose families once ruled the independent states, like Bavaria, before Germany first became a unified country in the 19th century.
Strictly speaking a few American families who do this may actually be entitled to the use of those arms, if they can show patrilineal descent from the original grantee of the arms. AFAIK emigration doesn’t abolish the right of these descendants to use the arms, and no American law forbids it. It’s true the Constitution bans titles of nobility, but armorial bearings per se are not noble titles.
After reading a bit about Irish titles it seems like ift does exist genuine Baron-titles, but that they are very rare and hard to document if they are real or not. And if it is real it is the same type of title as the Scottish ones.
What is really the definition of gentry today? Is it just a word used about rich people who has their own businesses but not a noble title? Or does it still reply to people who has a family that comes from the landed aristocracy?
That link states “Irish titles fall into two distinct groups: the titles belonging to the ancient Gaelic royal houses, and those feudal titles introduced after the Norman conquest of Ireland.”
This list inexplicably excludes the Peerage of Ireland, which includes numerous baronies, whose history and continuity are well-documented. For example, the current Lord Dunsany is the 21st holder of a title that dates back to the 14th century.
I doubt if the term is used very much these days, but insofar as it is applied to anybody at all, it would be the landowner in the big house. The term isn’t used for other wealthy people, such as business people.
Well, there are no logical reason that a person that bears the title “Lord of the Manor” should not be defined as gentry (he bears a title that is gentry) when people who bear titles like baron or duchess are defined as nobility and aristocrats.
A duchess is noble only because of her meaningless title. She does not have privileges and are the same for the law as everyone else, she just has a pontless piece of paper that states that “oooooh the Duchess of X”. Do you see the similarity? Aristocrats are only aristocrats because of meaningless titles. I understand that a lord of the manor is a title of much lower rank, but it is the same principle (just a title) and just as much gentry as the duchess are nobility.
And yes, noble titles are inherited from the family but the fact that you are related far out to someone who was handed land/special rights more than hundred years ago does not really mean anything.
I must say that was an extremely good point! It is the same fact i react to in this thread, noble titles i general today are totally pointless and gives no power but they are accepted and looked upon as “rised high above everyone else” but suddenly when it is a lord of the manor-title (same thing, same principle, just lower rank) then everyone is hysterical and screams out about how stupid it is and that it dosent give any prestige what so ever.
Todays lords of the manor are just as much gentry as counts and earls are nobility. It is the same thing, just lower rank.