[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
Offer them money? I mean, people do that all the time in the business world I hear.[/quoet]
Why don’t you do it, then?
Not at all. I’m not wedded to Market Theory out of some religious devotion. I accept it in so much as it works. If you could prove it wrong, I’d switch over to the “Evil Captor Theory” of economics in a hearbeat.
I’ll remember that the next time you ask for a cite.
Sure there are brilliant and fucked up CEO’s…but I’m unsure if there are any ordinary joe types running major corporations. There is a bit of a difference. In addition, many CEO’s who are fuckups at one company had previously stellar records at another. Generally a CEO isn’t someone who has never worked before and was granted CEO status of a major corporation by fiat…but someone of proven worth, someone with a good past track record. Only in the movies do you get some average joe type off the street thats magically given the job of CEO.
No? Then look some up and find me an average joe type CEO. As you say, there is bound to be one out there somewhere. I’d hazard to guess though that this would be the exception…not the rule. Or do you disagree there too?
-XT
The auto companies have a history of short sighted stupid management. No looking ahead, always trying to catch up. From the poorly made small cars of the 60 s and the lack of quality in the whole fleet.
In my companies HR did almost all the hiring. Not just running ads but interviewing and testing. Then they presented the chosen ones to the higher ups. It should sound like ratifying to you ,but it won’t. It just is.
The old saw in business not what you know but who you know still carries. Connections make the man. Its a good old boy network.
Do you really dream that the cream rises to the top. Good for you . I do not. Sometimes it happens that way . Mostly not. When the bean counters took over the big 3 ,they brought them down the rest of the way. They did however reward themselves very well.
What money? Who’s money? If it’s your money, why even pretend to be the CEO, just let one of these crackerjack underlings be the CEO so you don’t screw it all up. Oh, but that would mean you’d be hiring a “special” CEO instead of an “average joe” CEO.
Of course, it’s time to ask exactly how a person with no particular management skills is able to figure out who is and who isn’t a “strong” manager that should be hired as part of the team. Or do you also think that recognizing talent is just as easy as managing a business?
CEOs are generally hired to be responsible for millions upon millions of dollars of someone else’s money. Why would anyone give that responsibility to a person who hasn’t proven their skills in managing a business?
I think you look at the tasks that a CEO does day in and day out and say “I can do that” All the guy is doing is listening to presentations, and deciding on a course of action, that’s EASY.
It’s easy to make a decision when options are presented to you. It’s not easy to know what the right decision is. That is why CEOs are drawn from a pool of people with a long track record of success, and paid big bucks.
Sure, it’s a pretty clear example. On occasion, CEOs do well. On other occasions, they fail miserably. On most occasions they muddle along. I’d say your average bright guy who’s been trained for it most of his life could do about as well as most CEOs. In short, there isn’t any special ability that makes a CEO great from birth, just a lot of training and such. Some few may be talented, virtual geniuses, but they’re as rare as geniuses are in other fields. (As commonly used, “genius” just means “smarter than I am.” Actually, genius is quite rare.
Oh, you all were asking for a rotten CEO. I’ll name 3: Charles Keating. Ken Lay. Neill Bush.
The list could be a LOT longer.
Let’s turn it around - do you believe there are any hockey players making multi-million dollar salaries who are only average on skates? How about football players? Basketball players?
Pick any other field where there are high-priced people who are paid voluntarily with other people’s money. Are any of them mediocrities? If not, why do you think CEO is any different? How do you think a man of only average intelligence and ability gets to the position of CEO in the first place? How did he get the loyalty of this super-staff? How did he get promoted up the chain, and for what reason?
I don’t see any evidence at all for your assertion that some CEOs have just average skills. Now, it may be that some are of only average intelligence, but have some other unusual gift that they bring to the table. But to be just ‘average’ across the board, and be running a publically-traded company? Show me one.
Now, a private company may be different. Since the owner gets to call the shots, he may grow the the company to a respectable size if he gets lucky and finds some managers who really run the show. But I can’t think of one.
“Someone who has never worked before and was granted CEO status of a major corporation by fiat”? “Some average joe type off the street that’s magically given the job”? Is that how you’re interpreting “adequate average-joe CEO”? Well, no wonder you don’t believe in them, then.
But that’s certainly not what I was talking about, nor do I get the impression that it’s what EC had in mind either. I just mean, as I said, “a person of average intelligence with a strong crew of managers with good staffs doing research”. I didn’t specify that it had to be somebody “who never worked before” who was just plucked “off the street”.
Like I said, is there any other professional category you’d apply these peculiar assumptions and criteria to? For instance, would you refuse to believe in the existence of doctors of only-average intelligence and mediocre abilities, unless I gave you specific examples of people with no medical training adequately practicing medicine after being “magically” granted doctor status “by fiat”?
My original proposal was to have a glorified clerk called "the Deciderer"who would make decision based on input from department head and such. I never proposed the communal leadership that you all collectively assumed I did.
Ever read “The Guns of August” msmith? There were a LOT of really, really, really stupid officers and generals in history. Especially WWI. They ought to call it the Dumb War instead of the The Great War.
Because unlike you, I’m not frothing-at-the-mouth angry about this. I’m just having a nice debate here. I don’t understand why you’re so pissed.
That was my point. It isn’t. I like my idea better. Hire a glorified clerk to be the Deciderer. Pay him well. Hire an out-of-work actor be the figurehead President. Pay him or her badly. He or she will think he or she has struck gold just because they’re not waiting table. And continue to pay your administrative assistant to do all the gruntwork of running the company, but maybe pay her a little better and show more respect.
Employees? They sound like zombies. :eek:
So go make some connections. That’s part of being in the business world. Go to business school. Attend networking functions. Join a golf club. Build relationships with your coworkers and managers. Develop a reputation as someone who people want to have working for them. No one just wakes up as management in a corporation.
Sure, the superstars who get paid exceptional salaries generally have exceptional abilities (although of course, in business as in sports, whether the fabulously compensated top-drawer performers are really “earning” the huge sums they’re making is open to debate).
But AFAICT, we’re not talking specifically about superstars here. Like I said, there are some several million corporations in the US. Are you trying to tell me that you don’t believe any of them are being run by people of merely average intelligence and abilities? As I asked xtisme, do you also believe there are no “average-joe” doctors? If not, why this automatic reverence for CEOs in particular?
Okay then, you are apparently talking not just about a person of average abilities, but an untrained and inexperienced person of average abilities “magically” placed “by fiat” in the CEO’s chair. You’ll have to argue with xtisme yourself about that one.
Now it sounds as though you’re talking about a person of average abilities but who does have relevant training and experience. That’s what I was talking about, and that’s what I would tend to agree with you on.
I don’t think Least Orig was asking for advice on how to succeed in business management. I think he was just offering his reasons why he doesn’t agree with the claim that CEO’s all need to be brilliantly talented in order to reach an adequate level of success.
Well there you go. 
We see the definition differently then.
Show me one then so we can evaluate it. I don’t believe that there are any CEO’s of major corporations that are average joe types without SOME exceptional skill or ability that they are bringing to the table other than a good staff. I conceed that there might be one or two out there lurking in the bushes…but to really make your point, you are going to need to show me some. Then, if you really agree with the OP, you are going to need to expand that to show that this is common and not the exception in the business world.
I don’t think there are many ‘average joe doctors’…but its irrelevent anyway. There are a lot more doctors out there than CEO’s of major corporations…no? A CEO of a major corporation IS a lot like a professional sports star…because there are so few of them.
And its not an ‘automatic reverence for CEO’s’ I’m talking about at least. CEO’s fuck up too. I’m just saying they aren’t average people…they are, by and large, exceptional people who run major corporations, usually with proven track records. Doesn’t mean they don’t have average intelligence…but they have something that makes them exceptional or they wouldn’t be there.
-XT
Wait a minute. First you talked about guys of “average” intelligence, now you’re talking about “average bright guy[s]” (my emphasis). What is an average bright guy? Doesn’t sound very average to me. And who ever said CEOs were born?
In one of my previous posts I listed other attributes besides intelligence which were important in the make-up of a senior manager. Why this single focus on intelligence? Being successful at almost anything requires more than one narrow talent. I think you’ve constructed one big strawman with this whole intelligence thing, and you’re moving the goal posts to boot.
This pool they come from is already more than average. It generally requires a college education and often more. The average joe is out of the equation. But we all know people who got through college with not much ability. It happens . It also happens that people are promoted above their ability.
Does anyone believe Bush is a great manager.? He has tons of people setting policy and giving him info. He is a ratifier . His example is living proof of how much it really takes to run a big organization. A large talented staff.
Huh?!? There are only something like 700,000 doctors in the US. As I pointed out above, there are several million corporations, and hence several million heads of corporations, in the US. So there are definitely more CEO’s than doctors. Whether there are more “CEO’s of major corporations” than doctors depends on how you want to define “major”, I guess.
In fact, I think the reason you’re still talking past my point is because you still want to talk only about a very small subset of corporate leaders, like Sam with his multimillion-dollar sports superstars. Fine, but I happen to be talking about something different.
Well, if you’re willing to admit that even among the small elite of leaders of “major” corporations there are some with only average intelligence, I don’t understand at all why you would balk at the idea that in the wider world of CEO-dom of corporations in general, there are CEO’s with not only average intelligence but also average abilities. Pretty much ordinary joes, in fact.
Oh…we are talking about everyone from a CEO of a major corporation to someone who calls himself a ‘CEO’ and has 2 employees? Sorry…I didn’t realize we were being so loose with the definition there. By that definition, I suppose I’m a CEO myself.
Doesn’t seem a useful definition to me, but whatever floats your boat. BTW, I think the general definition of a ‘major corporation’ is one that has over a billion in sales yearly…or perhaps a company in the Fortune 1000 would be a better definition. My own company hardly qualifies of course.
Conversely, I think you are talking past all the rest of our points because if you broaden the definition of anything out enough you can make things fit the way you want them too. You can say with confidence that there are CEO’s without any special abilities, intelligence or anything else if you broaden it to every person who owns their own company, regardless of how small it is. Just like you could say with confidence that there are mediocre professional athelets out there…if you broaden the definition enough.
I’m willing to conceed the possibility…but you will need to show me something more to make that point a fact. I note you ignored the rest of what I asked, namely to show me this is the norm (as the OP seems to indicate) and not the exception…i.e. that CEO types are, as a norm, average bumbler types. Even if you broaden the definition to the ridiculous lengths you have, I have my doubts that folks who own their own companies are, as a general rule, simply average joes without exceptional skills of some kind or another. Feel free though to back that up with more than words if you like.
-XT
I thought we were talking about megabucks CEOs here. Hell, I was a CEO of a corporation, but I can guarantee you I wasn’t compensated all that well. Of course there are average people running one of millions of corporations. But the guy running a 3-employee shop in Waukegan isn’t pulling down millions of dollars, either.
Since the class envy seems to be aimed at the Fortune 500 types who make the million dollar paychecks, let me ask you - of the 500 CEOs of the Fortune 500, how many do you think are just average dudes who managed to get lucky or hav a good team behind them? Hell, how many do you think are only slightly above average?
Of course there are average Joe doctors. How many of them do you suppose are chiefs of surgery in major hospitals?
If you had said that there are a lot of average Joes who graduate from business school, or even average Joes with Harvard MBA’s, I might agree with you. The difference when we’re talking about CEOs of major corporations is that long before these guys make CEO they are tested repeatedly in the marketplace. The guys who make CEO are selected out of their cohort for having exceptional ability. That’s why I made the analogy to sports superstars - they share one thing in common: they are specifically selected from their peers based on demonstrated ability. The average ones get left behind.
Before a guy makes CEO in a major corporation, he will have been making management decisions of increasing importance for decades. He’ll have a long track record, and the people who are looking for a CEO will be able to examine it. And they’ll have a pool of hundreds or thousands of applicants to choose from - people who have all reached the level where they could plausibly be considered for the position.
For example, let’s look at Jeff Immelt, the current CEO of GE. The guy has a degree in mathematics from Dartmouth, and a Harvard MBA. He was in GE for 18 years before he made CEO. During that time, he moved up through management until he was head of GE Plastics, GE Medical, and GE Appliances. In each of those positions, he turned in stellar performances for each business unit. He then became an Officer in GE, and spent 11 years under Jack Welch in roles of increasing responsibility, before being chosen to be CEO of GE.
Here’s a list of the 24 other GE Executives and their biographies. Tell me which ones are ‘average Joes’.
Well, I said quite explicitly back in post #57 that I was talking about “people out there running businesses of varying sizes […] There are literally several million corporations in the US alone; I seriously doubt that all of them, or even all the successful ones, are being run by a super-race of managerial masterminds.”
Well, the point I was specifically addressing when I brought up the subject was Bricker’s sweeping claim that the “average man business model” literally didn’t exist anywhere except in the OP’s imagination. This seemed to me obviously absurd, given that there are a whole lot of corporations, many of which are doubtless run by pretty average people.
If you, on the other hand, want to explicitly limit your remarks to a very narrow subset of corporate management consisting of only the top-performing Fortune 100 or Fortune 1000 companies or whatever, fine. It’s just that that doesn’t happen to be what I’m talking about
But I never claimed that “average bumblers” are the norm for “CEO types”. If that’s what you think the OP is saying, then take it up with the OP. As for me, I don’t happen to think that “bumbler” is an appropriate synonym for “person of average intelligence with average abilities”, nor do I assert that such people constitute the majority or norm of CEO’s.
If you want to debate what I’m actually saying, instead of what you think the OP is saying, or what you wish I would say because it would be easier to refute, go right ahead. But all you’ve really come up with so far is strawmen.
Well, as I just told xtisme, you certainly can if you want to. But as it happens, I’m not.
Huh? What “class envy”? Who here is saying anything any meaner, or more “envious”, about corporate managers as a group than the simple statement that some of them have average intelligence and abilities?
Are you really so enamoured (or so vain) of the prestige of CEO’s that you literally consider it an “envious” insult if someone merely opines that not all of them are brilliantly talented? Good lord. Get over yourself, dude. 
Fair enough. So why are you trying to debate me about things that you disagree with that I didn’t actually say? I mean, sure, carry on disagreeing with them all you want, but don’t bother looking to me for a sparring partner.
I can’t believe that you guys had to go into that little divergent discussion about every corporation on earth. The OP was clearly talking about large corporations, or medium sized one, at least-- not Mom and Pop Inc. And there would be no reason to take Bricker’s one line comment as anything but in that context. Hell, we could start another divergent discussion about whether Bricker’s comment requires as “super-race of managerial masterminds”, per Kimstu’s first post. Are we to assume that she meant a literal “race” of people, geneticially different from the rest of humanity? Unlikely.
He’s wrong. You need more than just knowing someone to become CEO. And generally, when you get into a position higher than entry level because you know someone, it’s usually because they know you aren’t an idiot.
All this talk about “average joes” being doctors or CEOs is utter nonsense. By DEFINITION if you are in that position, you are not “average” (whatever that means). The average person does not go to graduate school. Heck, only 25% of Americans go to college so you can’t even say that the average American is a college grad. Average people don’t start businesses or lead them. They don’t have the drive or ambition to even want to be in that position.
CEOs and managers are not super-men/women, but they generally have a drive, a desire to lead and other talents that make them stand out above average people.
Gonzomax, the first company where my brother worked is owned by a small number of partners. It has 5,000 direct employees; being construction, the number of subcontractors easily rises them to 50,000 employees.
When they needed a new treasurer, it wasn’t “HR” who interviewed candidates. It was one person. And it wasn’t one person from HR. It was one of the partners, the one that this new treasurer would work for.
That’s how a 22yo fresh out of college got his first job. Human Resources didn’t get involved until after the partner had decided that she liked him; at that point, HR got called in to do two things: get some tests run “not to see whether he’s a good fit, because I’ll never trust a shrink to tell me who fits here and who doesn’t, but to see whether his roof is in place” (most HR-driven processes in Spain begin with a “cookie cutter” design of a psychological profile, often done by someone who doesn’t understand the job at all) and prepare his contract.
While that company is not a Fortune 500, it’s a company whose name everybody in Spain recognizes.