Since they don’t give college degrees to the deceased, yes.
It was a shame. He could have had college paid for by the GI Bill. But, I guess after a certain point, he just didn’t see why he should go back to school. He did OK at the Post Office, he was able to support his family well. We had modest needs, and a modest lifestyle. Books and records are far less expensive than expensive clothes, expensive clubs and expensive cars. Books and art and music feed the soul, something he taught us all well.
He had a good life. And he was surrounded by his books and records! And the great annual family vacations, and the wonderful piano he got for my mom … he did OK.
First of all, I just want to point out that I don’t base a persons value on their resume. However, whatever criteria a person chooses to pick their friends with is their own business. Career choice is just one of many criteria I look at when valuing a persons worth. It’s not even the most important one.
Re: Temp workers
As someone who’s worked as a temp, a consultant, and as a full time employee, I think I’ve seen this situation from just about every side.
I think people usually never bother to get to know temps because, by their nature, they aren’t going to be around long. Kind of like the FNGs (Fucking New Guys) is Nam movies like Platoon. The veterns didn’t give a crap about them because they would probably get themselves killed in a few weeks anyway.
Contractors and professional consultants are a different story. These people are usually resented because they come into a company, show a lot of fancy Powerpoint preses (presentations), throw around fancy buzz words (like ‘paradigm’ or ‘best practices’) and in generally act like they have some simple fix that will put the company back on track. They tend to be younger, arrogant, enthusiastic about their job, and highly educated (in other words, just like me, except for the enthusiasm part). Id be pissed off too, if I worked a a company for thirty years and dome kid right out of B-school came in and told me how to do my job better.
I don’t think this is really jobbism, though. I think jobbism is more like “People in the mail room are stupid. We can’t promote Joe out of the mail room because even though he’s highly qualified, he works in the mail room”.
OK, I’ll take your word for it. Or, rather, I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, some of the things you wrote on this thread certainly left a lot of us with the impression that you valued certain job-related aspects about a person. I think it was the statements like “When I hear someone works at a Burger King drive in window, I think less of them than I do someone who works as a banker or lawyer.” and “But, I’ll be the first to admit that I’m jobist. I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women.” Because of what you have written, we have assumed that you judge a person more by their profession. More than many the rest of us do, as a matter of fact. We have merely commented on the words you wrote. If we have been grossly in error in interpreting what you have written (here, in your own words, on this thread) then of course you are free to discuss it in detail. Here, on this thread.
Certainly. And the best way to not have to be exposed to other people’s opinions about your personal preferences is to not post your opinions on a message board. Your own words here have been commented on, that’s all. No one is telling you that you must alter the way you choose friends. But we all are generous with offering our opinions on this board, if you hadn’t noticed.
OK, whatever. But since you have freely admitted more than once that you are a “jobist”, it appears (judging by your own words) that a person’s career choice is rather important to you. More important than it is to some of the rest of us. And so we commented on that. [sub](That’s why they call it a MESSAGE BOARD.)[/sub]
You can feel free to comment all you like. I fully admit to being “jobist”. I’m sure I’m also “classist”, “schoolist”, “ageist”, and “racist” in the sense that I am more comfortable around people who are just like me.
Like it or not, certain jobs have more prestige than others. This list will differ depending on your personal values and objectives, but here’s an example of where I think a number of jobs fall on the prestige spectrum:
High level jobs:
Doctor
Corporate lawyer
Investment banker
Menial jobs:
Burger king employee
Day laborer
What do I base this on? As you go up the list, a greater commitment is required. You just don’t decide to become a doctor or lawyer. You need to study, work hard, make connections and plan. A burger flipper, on the other hand, just needs to apply at the right time.
I see nothing wrong with creating a hierarchy of job classes. In this country (USA), you aren’t born into your station. You have the opportunity to go as far as your ambition and ability can take you. Implying that a burger flipper is on the same level as someone who studied for years to become a doctor is absurd.
And I do judge a person by their background. If I meet a 35 yr old operating a cash register at the local Stop & Shop and they have to ask me three times if I want paper or plastic, I think they’re a moron.
On the other hand, if I meet someone with an MBA from Harvard, I can reasonably assume that they are intelligent and hard working. That doesn’t mean I’ll like them, but at least they accomplished something that most people can’t.
Another thing. Nothing rubs me the wrong way more than some blue collar worker thumbing their nose at us professional types. You know, the “oh look at the college boy” attitude. Excuse me for wanting more for my family than driving a 10 yr old car, living paycheck to paycheck, and owning some ramshackle house between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory.
“People like you”, huh? Boy, I was right when I said you needed to expand your horizons. The world is FULL of different people, and a lot of them have unique and valuable perspectives. Too bad you are too engrossed in sticking with “people who are just like you”.
Oh goody. You’ve made a list. How charming. You’ve just thought it all out, haven’t you? Good. Grief. :rolleyes:
So, I will bring it up again: my job (working with retarded people) requires (to paraphrase you) for the employee to apply at the right time. Seriously. Anyone with a pulse who is willing to take the job is going to get it, just about. (They do have to pass a security check, though.) They don’t need to “study, work hard, make connections and plan”. So, tell me, Oh Wise One, where exactly on your LIST would my job appear? Please. Enlighten me. I want to know what LEVEL I’m on.
True, working hard and studying hard is something to be respected. But, without knowing the life history of the burger flipper, you DON’T REALLY KNOW much about them. One of the most brilliant artists I met worked at Taco Bell. She was (I think) in her '30s, still at Taco Bell. She drew these amazing fantastical animals. She said she got the ideas for these drawings from the dreams she’d have after eating a spicy Taco! I don’t know why she was still working at Taco Bell, but she was. She was also a brilliant artist, and lots of fun to talk to. I’m glad I got to know her.
But oh. I forgot. She was in her 30s, and she was working at a fast food place. So, she’s on that lower LEVEL, right?
What do you mean by “same level”? NO ONE is on the same level. We are all too complex. The burger flipper could be the most morally pure person, the most generous person around. On THAT level, they would certainly be on a lot higher “level” than your average lawyer, or other professional person who had more shaky moral character. There are a LOT of “levels” out there, bub.
What background? How do you find this out? Do you ask them to tell you their life story? You just MET THEM at the Stop & Shop. What, exactly do you KNOW about their “background”, other than the job they are holding at that moment?
As far as why they asked you 3 times for paper or plastic - maybe they have the flu, and are feeling oogy from the flu medication. Maybe they are hard of hearing. Maybe they are writing a Great American Novel at home, and are just tuckered out from staying up all night, writing. YOU DON’T KNOW. Though, I agree, I’ve met morons in all walks of life. So sure, the 35 year old at the register very well may be a moron. But you can’t just discern that from their JOB alone.
Sure - this is nice, this is worthy of some respect. Hard work and study is worth of respect - up to a point. But I don’t think any human being can expect everyone to automatically put them on a higher “level” forever because of it. What kind of person is this MBA from Harvard? How do they treat their parents? How do they treat their family? Do they have any interesting hobbies? Do they appreciate the arts? It’s quite possible that they are a really well-rounded, creative, honorable MBA from Harvard. In which case - wow. Someone who sounds really great, on many LEVELS. Or, they could be a selfish, vain, shallow, dull MBA from Harvard. In which case, who cares how frickin’ long they went to school, or how well they did? They sound like an asshole. Smart asshole, stupid asshole = still an asshole. Their level of education (at that point) carries no extra weight for me, at least.
And, by the way, how many blue collar types have you encountered who have a 10 year old car, live paycheck to paycheck, live in a ramshackle house, AND live between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory? Could you fit any more annoying, condescending, snobby cliches in there?
Sure, I occasionally encounter someone who is ignorant, and proud of it. I actually met a woman who seemed PROUD that she’d never left the state of her birth. (I’m really into going on road trips, and like talking about all the places I’ve seen. Apparently this ticked her off.) Some people are intolerant of anything different than they are. They want to stick with people like themselves, so they look down on anyone who is different. (Oh. Wait. That sounds like…YOU, doesn’t it?) So yeah, some blue collar workers will have a bad attitude, and it’s just as bad as when the snobby “professionals” do the same thing.
However, I’ve also met plenty blue collar people who are just SICK of being treated like second class citizens, like they have no brain or feelings because they have a dead-end job. NO ONE LIKES TO BE TREATED WITH CONDESCENSION. I’d hazard a guess and say that many people who make fun of the “college boys” have received some condescending treatment from a smart-ass, snobby jerk who wears their “I’m on a higher LEVEL than YOU” attitude on their sleeve. These snobby types really think that the blue-collar type is too stupid to detect their absolute contempt and condescension. Which is just such amazing arrogance.
Sheesh. And to think - you’ve even made a list of the “levels” of jobs. See - THAT is the kind of thing that will tick off your Average Joe Sixpack. Some dweeb making lists like that. :rolleyes:
msmith527: I don’t think there is anything wrong with being more comfortable hanging with people who you share common interests. Kind of a no-brainer, really . But I might suggest, as I think yosemitebabe is doing, that your view of the world and people’s place in them seems to be excessively ‘black and white’.
Me:
**age **- mid-30’s job - blue-collar ( a trades position essentially, i.e. I am required to be certified by the state ) income - 75-80k/year ( Bay Area dollars, granted, but still reasonable for a single guy ). One of my co-workers will break 100k with overtime this year. education - No degree, as I never bothered with certain lower division requirements because I wasn’t particularly interested. But I was a professional student for 15 years and amassed in the neighborhood of 280-odd semester credits in stuff I was interested in. History and biology, mostly, including several graduate classes. Education was a hobby . Several of my blue-collar co-workers do have degrees ( biochemistry, marine biology, business, etc. ). friends - Dotcom workers, lawyers, advertising execs, museum curators, seasonally employed field biologists, teachers, graduate students, and yes, blue-collar slobs like myself, just to name a few. Roommate is a compliance officer for the FDA, who is a specialist in the systematic biology of scorpions and solpugids in his spare time. Range of income of friends? Probably 10 -125k a year. Correlation of white-collar, professional jobs to higher income amongst these friends? Uneven, at best. car - 2000 Maxima SE ( Not the best amongst my co-workers by a long shot. A couple of them drive 7-series BMW’s ).
So where does that put me on your spectrum ? Even if I bothered getting one of my degrees, which I could manage easily enough in a semester or two if I were so inclined, I couldn’t make more money in any white-collar field I’m qualified for. Even if I got a graduate degree, I couldn’t do that. So this association you’re making between income and professional jobs doesn’t necessarily hold true.
Neither does this association with intelligence and education. You may not have met many stupid engineers, lawyers, MBA’s. I have. Sometimes it’s the stupidity of overspecialization and “forest, but not the trees” narrowmindedness - Something I think certain professions are more prone to than others. I might mention the engineers that sited all the floor drains in a particular building at the high points in the floor ( almost like it was deliberate - damned if he didn’t fuck up every single one ), despite the fact that it was known it would have to be washed down regularly :rolleyes: . Sometimes they’re just plain dumb - I’ve known several “professionals” that qualified. A degree is no guarantee of smarts. It just means you figured out a way to negotiate the system.
Not to say all blue-collar workers are brilliant by comparison. Definitely not. But you know what happens when we assume .
And that’s the problem, I think, if we want to call it that. You give the impression that you’re making the easy assumptions in life. And that’s just lazy . Try to make fewer assumptions and evaluate people as individuals. I have a friend ( with two degrees ) that spends several months a year in the field doing biological surveys ( including the supervising of others ). The rest of the year she does service work or whatyever else she can find to make ends meet. Would your view of her change depending on what part of the year you encountered her?
I know you’re saying you don’t judge folks by their resume. But you seem to be saying that from one corner of your mouth and something else from the other. Unless, I’m just confused. Which I may be. Being a blue-collar drone with a “low-level job” and all .
Tamerlane - great points you have brought up! And I must add, many of my friends are “professional students”. I have WAAAAY too many college credits floating around as well.
I was musing over one of msmith’s comments, and wanted to pontificate a little more:
So, when someone accomplishes something that “most people can’t”, that means a lot to you?
Hey. I taught myself calligraphy. It’s not an easy thing to learn. (Not all calligraphers get the pen angle right, or have consistent lettering. It takes lots of practice and patience to be decent at it. And bear in mind that I never had really great handwriting before I learned it. So I worked hard to become a decent calligrapher.) I’ve even done it semi-professionally. I accomplished something that “most people can’t”. (At least, I don’t bump into calligraphers every day.) So - gimme my RESPECT. I am on a higher LEVEL now, OK?
Sheesh. There are many variations of abilities and skills that some folks will accomplish that “most people can’t”. It just isn’t about how great an education you’ve had. How do you know that the burger flipper hasn’t accomplished quite a few admirable things? For all you know, they are a great poet, or have an innate talent for playing the guitar, or are brilliant at math. Maybe they are just the best parent a person ever could hope for, or maybe they are so incredibly kind, that everyone they meet just loves them and feels comfortable around them. Being a really good person, that everyone loves and admires is a quality that “most people can’t” do, I’ve noticed. So why limit your criteria to just education, and job? So why be so quick to judge people before you have their full story?
But oh well, it’s so easy to make your little condescending “lists”, isn’t it? Easier than going out and meeting people that are (God Forbid) different than you. And, as Tamerlane says, lazy as well.
If she was such a great artist, why didn’t she pursue a career based on her talent? It’s always better to be paid for what you love doing anyway.
I’m the type of person who looks at results. You either succeed or fail. “Coulda, shoulda, woulda” doesn’t cut it. Its like saying “I could have been a great baseball player, but…”. But what? You lost your talent or weren’t as good as you thought. It could have been an injury or you were sick that day but whatever. The end result is the same.
In terms of her job, yes.
Now who’s being jobist? Are all lawyers shady? I think not. Besides, I’d rather be morally shady and living in a nice appartment downtown than a morally pure pauper.
So you admit that there is a hierarchy? If that’s the case then what’s wrong with saying some jobs are better than others?
And don’t call me “bub”.
Nor do I care. You know the saying “excuses are like assholes…”? Where I come from, you do your job right. If you’re sick, stay at home and don’t touch my friggin groceries! Customers and employers don’t want to hear excuses about great american novels or feeling oogy.
Does this matter? Are hobbies or art appreciation somehow better criteria for judging a person? What makes you think your criteria for evaluating a person is better than mine?
Plenty and
yes.
Why’s that? What does anyone care about my oppinion of their job?
I’m not sure what your looking for anyway. For me to suddenly embrace all workers of the world?
Like I said, when I meet someone, I don’t really care what they do for a living. I look at their attitude and behavior more than their resume. If they achieved something like a 20th degree blackbelt or they have a really cool and usual job, I might be impressed. If they are an expert in something I don’t have an interest in (like caligraphy) thats great, but it doesn’t make more more interested in that person.
If a person is intelligent, fun, and basically a good person it doesn’t matter to me if they are a plumber or whatever. On the other hand, if they they have a chip on their sholder and can’t talk about anything other than “da Sox”, how wicked drunk they got last night, or “dose BC/BU/Haavard kids ah all stuck up jerks”, I don’t want to know them.
Let’s expand on that a bit and ask; “Would your view of people change depending on what part of their lives you’re encountering them in?”
msmith, it sounds like you’ve bought into The Great American Way lock, stock and barrel. You know, the Way were everyone is judged by how much money they make, what kind of car they drive, how big their house is, what neighbourhood it’s located in, and what they do for a living. For you, if this is how you want to live your life, that’s entirely your choice (of course), but have you ever sat down and figured out what is important to you? If you have, and you have decided that making money and having nice things is important, go crazy with it. Just make sure that it’s your dream, not one you inherited from your family or adopted as your own without making a decision about whether you wanted it or not. But don’t look down on other people who may have done their own soul-searching and decided that raising a family, or being free to travel, or only working part-time to have more time for hobbies, or whatever is most important to them and have decided to live their lives in the way that makes the most sense to them. Their life choices are as valid as yours, even if their choices aren’t endorsed by The Great American Way.
(disclaimer - I am making an assumption about you based on your past posts, here and in other threads. I could be totally out to lunch; it’s happened before. I’m also resisting a huge temptation to call you “Bub”. :D)
I met her at an art show. A modest art show, but she was DOING HER ART, and had it in an art show, to sell. But the job she had to pay the bills was Taco Bell.
You are into “end results”? Well, she was doing her art. She didn’t “lose” her talent - she was active with it. The END RESULT was that she was a fantastic artist, and she was drawing and painting, and - getting in art shows. Maybe she’s gone on to do art full time, I don’t know. But at the time I met her, she was working at Taco Bell. At age 30.
Hey - fine. Stay there up in your ivory tower, looking down at all the interesting people with interesting talents. I’ll be down here with my creative, interesting friends. Your loss. ( :rolleyes: )
Now who is being defensive? I never said ALL laywers were shady, no more than I said all burger flippers are morally pure. I said, if given a choice, I’d take a morally pure burger flipper over a morally shady lawyer any day. And you wouldn’t? You know, that says it all about you. That is so sad. That is so shallow, and empty.
So, moral pureness doesn’t mean as much as a nice apartment. Got it. That’s sad.
Where did I admit there was a heirarchy? I was just furthering your comparison to lawyers and burger flippers.
Oh! Oh! Oh! ::she bows and scrapes:: Many apologies, Your Royal Highness.
The issue wasn’t whether they did their job right, or whether you want to hear their excuses. The issue was whether all 35 year old grocery checkers were MORONS. And I said, “you don’t know”. And I gave some examples of why someone might appear dull-witted at the job, while NOT being an actual “moron”.
You will notice, I also mentioned how they treat their family, how they treat their parents - I have SEVERAL criteria. How a person treats their loved ones is very important - or do you think that it doesn’t “matter” as well? Hobbies are interesting too - and can indicate if a person is dull, or interesting and excited about life. I have several criteria - you seem to be focusing on one or two. So yeah. I think my criteria for evaluating a person is better than yours. At least it’s more dimensional.
It’s just amazing to me that you would not understand how arrogant and condescending such a list is. But, hey - I guess I should have learned to expect such a reaction from you. And, I feel I must remind you - this is called (if you haven’t noticed) the GREAT DEBATES. We (believe it or not) Debate here. No, I really don’t lose sleep over your opinions on jobs. For one thing, I think you are very young, and it’s my guess that you’ll grow out of this B&W view of things relatively soon. If not - well, too bad.
Well, maybe to not make any more lists - that would be a start. And maybe, to (as I’ve put it before) to “expand your horizons a bit”? It’s up to you, of course.
As Tamerlane said, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. This above paragraph SO does not wash, considering what you’ve written above. Let me give you a tip: People who really don’t care what a person does for a living DON’T take the time making up little “lists” like you have done.
Oh - riiiiiight. See above. :rolleyes:
Who does? Who is talking about them? They sound like snobs in their own right. When have I given an example of anyone that even remotely sounded like such a person? Did my dad sound like such a person? Did my friend who worked at Taco Bell sound like such a person? Did my sweet, good tempered co-workers sound like such a person? Not all blue collar workers fit the neat little condescending cliche you have of them.
And, I have to say, I am still waiting for you to assess what “level” my job is on, on your little “list” of “LEVELS”. I am sure Tamerlane is all curiosity as well as to which cuppyhole you’ve put him in.
So - tell us, Oh Wise One, where on your esteemed list do our jobs belong? We wanna know what LEVEL we are on.
yosemitebabe - It must be nice to be so self righteous. [SARCASTIC TONE]Sorry for wanting nice things or having expensive hobbies or making a decent salary or being educated. I guess there’s something wrong with me because I value education and hard work.[SARCASM OFF]
I like working in a competitive environment. I like working with people who are smart and talented. Is that stuck up or snobbish? Maybe. I prefer the term selective.
Let me give you an example of where I’m coming from:
I left a job with a prestigeous consulting firm for a lesser job so I could go to grad school (new job was more 9-5 and had no travel). The people at my first job all had degrees from top schools and were ambitous. They had a variety of interesting hobbies and activities like running marathons, traveling, art, music, and one guy was even an olympic class skiier. For fun, we would go out to eat at reasonably priced restaurants of every variety or go to trendy clubs and bars around the city.
By comparison, the people at my second job had degrees from lower ranked schools (when they had degrees at all). Some were bright but most were mediocre to incompetant at their job. They had no ambition and many were in the same position (that they complained about) for at least 15 years. Now, I’m sure they all had hobbies too, but their attitudes were so bad that I couldn’t stand being around them long enough to hear about them (they would bitch a lot). When forced to hang out with them socially, we would usually go to some joe-sixpack bar (atmosphere is more important to me than $2 draft Bud Light). On rare occasions where people from other companies would be in the same bar, these people would mutter comments under their breath. In general, they sucked to work with and were even worse company socially.
You see, what a lot of people who didn’t go to college don’t realize is that college is more than just getting a degree and partying. You get exposed to things you might normally not get to see. How interesting can you be if you spend your entire life in the same town you grew up in?
You also learn to compete intellectually with others. It’s one thing to take classes in your spare time. Its quite another where your entire future rides on getting a higher grade than the guy sitting next to you.
Self righteous? Better than looking down my nose at people with “lesser” jobs, and even going so far as to MAKE LISTS about other people’s jobs!
It’s not the wanting nice things that is “wrong” - it is the looking down on other people who have a different background than you, and (I say it again) MAKING LISTS describing the hierarchy of jobs. And - there was that pitiful admission that you’d rather be “morally shady” as long as you had a nice apartment. That’s just sad.
“Selective” implies that you actually take time to evaluate people on a case-by-case basis, and take many factors into account. “Snobbish” is when you MAKE LISTS describing the “levels” of jobs. Just judging from the many things you’ve written here - “snobbish” sounds closer than “selective”. But hey - use any word you like, and the rest of us will do the same.
Everyone likes working with people who are smart and talented. And while your background story is interesting, you don’t really think that every workplace, and every person adheres to your personal experiences so far? Some workplaces are life-sucking hell pits, and some of the people who stay there adopt the attitude of the job. Other places are full of really neat, intelligent people. But seriously - you don’t actually think that EVERY person who goes to the “higher level” school is going to be more bright and talented than someone who goes to a “lower” school, do you? So why make such generalizations?
And, what about family background? Travel is really big in my family - at least we try to get out of our home town frequently. Yet we certainly are not products of the “best” schools. So how do WE fit into your little world view? And, as I have said many times, most everyone in my family has unique and rather notable talents and hobbies. But we didn’t get that way from going to a prestigious college. So - how does that fit into your world view?
I don’t like bitter, jealous, petty people anymore than anyone else. I don’t like lazy, dull-witted people more than anyone else. I’ve met both kinds, wherever I go. And, believe it or not, because of my art background, I’ve met people that have gone to some pretty great schools. It is my opinion that the way a person ends up is often a matter of their family upbringing, the choices they make in life, and the philosophy they choose to have. And, believe it or not, the college they go to is NOT always the major factor of how they turn out. Otherwise, all people who went to certain colleges would be wonderful, dandy people, and the rest of us would be stupid lumps. This is not really what you’re trying to imply, is it?
And, I notice how you have skillfully avoided Tamerline’s and my request for you to impart your Wisdom on where our jobs rate on your little “list”. So, for the third time Oh Wise One, please. Enlighten us. How do our jobs rate? Huh?
msmith537: That’s alright man, you don’t have to tell me where I rank on your personal scale of success in life and relative merit. I suspect I have a pretty good idea what your opinion is already .
Jeez, I don’t. I can’t even conceive of enjoying that. I like to do my job, do it right, and be left alone. Nothing worse than hypercompeititive people in my field. I loathe them, partly because at my job they tend to suckasses - It’s really the only outlet for compeitition there is, here. Technically we’re supposed to be “team-players” .
You know I always used to look down my nose at some of the pre-med types and such at school. I took a perverse pleasure in strolling into class after 20 minutes of studying and get an A-, while the uptight kids ( like my darling friend Beth who use to vomit from nervousness before every exam for three years ) spent five nights cramming and stringing themselves out to get to score three or four points higher. I’d rather be sane, thank you . ( Look carefully and you might see my biases )
Hell, who doesn’t ?
I still don’t agree that white-collar automatically = smart and talented, though. Which is the crux of this argument. I’m not saying that there {i]might* not be a higher proportion of smart and talented people in white-collar fields than in blue-collar. In fact I suspect that’s true. But you don’t bet the bank on mere percentages. There are always statistical outliers. And in this case anecdotal evidence suggests to me that the number of outliers is HUGE.
Nah. Snobbish . S’okay - I don’t like working with morons either. Just don’t suggest that a person’s occupation necessarily says anything about their intrinsic intelligence, competence, or self-worth and we’ll be just fine.
Oh, unless they’re a politician, because we all know they’re scum.
Kidding .
You’re quite right, it’s about getting an education. I’ve found that a distressingly high proportion of people that did go to college fail to realize that fact as well. Your continued presumption that possesing a degree = smart ( or even well-educated ), still tickles me.
Now why do I suspect this is a backhanded swipe at me ? No worries - I am pathologically good-natured, after all ( someone actually said that to me the other day in an utterly disgusted tone of voice - It’s not true, but I like the sound of it ). Yep, 'tis true, I always was more interested in learning something rather than collating my class standing.
May I humbly propose that if you are ever in a situation where your “entire future” rides on a score in a class, that you’ve already fucked yourself long before you ever walked through the doors of that classroom? In fact your statement is pure hyperbole. Nobody’s “entire future” rests on one grade. So you’re number two ( or 200 ) in your class instead of number one and have to settle for the marginally less prestigious law firm. HORRORS! Guess you’ll just have to work on correcting the situation, later. Didn’t get into med school this semester? Apply again next year.
That’s the nice thing about an “entire future”. It’s long . Well, unless you get hit by a bus your first day on your new, less-prestigious job and you die broken on the pavement feeling vaguely unfulfilled .
I’m poking fun a bit, of course. I realize there is real urgency in these things at times. But lets not get ridiculous. Being “compeititive” in that fashion is not only frequently self-defeating and bad for your health ( physical and mental ), it’s just pathetic. You do the best you can and deal with the consequences. That’s the healthy approach, IMHO.
Also you do realize that your choice of profession affects just how important class-standing is, right? Are people seeking to become high school english teachers less worthy than engineers, because they don’t need to be nearly as compeititive to succeeed? Is there a “white-collar hiearchy” ?
Why don’t you cry about my list a little more? People make lists all the time. My company is on Fortune magazines top 100 places to work list.
What do I think about your job? Of course I don’t rate it very highly. I have no desire to spend my days cleaning up after the mentally disabled for a pitience of a salary. (Is “retarded” even PC any more?). And in your own words, anyone can do it.
But I never judged you as a person. I judged your career choice based on what I want out of my career.
As a person, I wouldn’t want to hang out with you at all, regardless of your career choice. You are judgemental, self righteous, and insulting. You obviously can’t engage in a debate without resorting to name calling and condescending remarkes. Every one of your posts are filled with resentment towards anyone who you think might look down on your position.
This discussion has grown tedius. You will never convince me that every job is worthy of the same level of respect.
And another thing. I have a lot more respect for a person who grew up poor and found a way to go to college than someone who says they could have gone except for this, that, and the other thing.
You still don’t get it, do you? I’m not crying about your list - I am astonished by it. You simply don’t get it. It’s sad.
You never cease to amaze. And, I didn’t quite say “anyone” can do it, rather I said that they’d HIRE anyone to do it, as long as they passed a security check. But not “anyone” can do it. It sounds like you’d pass out and go “ick ick!” rather than do it. I could be wrong - just a hunch.
Sure, it’s an unappealing job. But someone has to do it…do you want these people wandering the streets? Do you even know anyone who is mentally retarded? It can happen in any family, you know. Who is supposed to take care of them, anyway? And the question wasn’t whether you would want to do it - because frankly, you don’t sound like you’re good enough. You need empathy and patience to do a job like mine. You need to not be excessively proud and snobby to take a job like mine. I just don’t know if you could hack it, even if, for some bizarre reason, you were forced to give it a try.
So, people who look after the most vulnerable of our citizens are on some “lower level”, huh? What about cops? What about farmers? Health care workers? These are people that do something real. They keep things going in this world - there is more to this world than working for a Fortune 500 company. Someone needs to grow the food, take care of the infirmed, and do other things that (sometimes) don’t pay as much money. And you have the gall to look down on huge portions of the population, who actually help life work for you? What would you do without auto mechanics? Or restaurant cooks? These people perform a useful service, which we all rely on. So why look down on them for it? It just amazes me.
One of my co-workers is going for her Masters in something related to the field we are in. (I can’t remember exactly what it is she’s studying.) Anyway, she’s already GOT a degree, she’s going for another, she’s currently working the same job that I am because - (get this) she wants to help people. She’s studying for her masters to get in a related job. She told me, “Obviously I’m not in this for the money”. She wants to HELP people. But of course, you don’t think much of her job, or mine, do you? Charming. Well, what could I expect?
What exactly is that supposed to mean? You’ve made multiple comments about how you “think less” of someone because of their job. How do you now distance yourself from that?
JUDGMENTAL? Oh, this is sooo rich. This whole tangent started because you admitted that you were a “jobist”. And several of us, not just me, thought you were being quite “judgmental”. And now you are whining because we (not just me) are not enchanted with the things you have written here, and the attitude you have displayed? Well, boo hoo hoo. Color me judgmental, then. Poor guy.
(And by the way, there is no question, I’d not want to hang out with you either. You sound waaay too uptight.)
Name-calling—hmmm. Please copy and paste the name-calling. Did I call you a “poopy head”? Did I use profanity? I may have called you judgmental (but you’ve called me that as well) I may have called you “condescending”, but I considered that more of a description. What other horrible, dreadful, mean things have I called you? (Oh, there was the grievous use of “bub”, and then “Your Royal Highness”. Hey - I thought they were funny! )
Oh my gosh. Please. Find me a person who LIKES being looked down on. Find me a person who likes being told that they are “less” because of their job. Find me a person who will LIKE it when someone says that their tale of their dear deceased father is “suspect”. (Sheesh - do you even know what “people skills” are?) Would you LIKE it? Would you appreciate it?
Fine, I kinda knew it was hopeless. Either you’ll get a wakeup call, or you won’t.
One serious warning, though. Be careful about hiding your contempt for people with jobs in the food industry. If you aren’t careful, you’ll end up with spit in your food.
Is this a back-handed stab at my dad? I don’t know if it was or not, but certainly he falls into the description you have made, since he didn’t go to college for several external reasons. In case you were alluding to my (dear, deceased dad) don’t even GO there. He was from a different era, he had different priorities, and he actually valued being a GOOD PERSON over having “nice things”. I still don’t know if you even comprehend the importance of that, but never mind. Either you get it, or you don’t.
I have to say, that this debate has been interesting for me. You see, I really thought you were capable of coming up with better stuff. (Seeing as you are so proud of your education, and all. ) I had left open many areas in this debate where you could have (if you had been paying attention) argued or nit-picked my stance on this or that. But you missed 'em. I was waiting for you to “counter attack” with certain things, and you just flat out missed 'em! I personally think it’s because you know deep down inside that your whole premise is flawed, so you put up a piss-poor debate - but whatever. I could be wrong.
I also am interested in how you have managed to totally ignore (so far) Tamerlane’s posts. What? Is he inivisible? Is he beneath you? Or are his arguments too good and too compelling, and you know you really haven’t got anything powerful to counter them with?
Let me just clarify the buckets in my “list”. And I’ll also add one more bucket.
Very high(New) - Jobs that only the top people in their field can aspire to. Examples would be astronauts, professional athletes, and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.
High - Jobs that require outstanding ability. Usually an advanced degree from a top school is required. These jobs usually have greater financial rewards…
Medium - ‘Regular’ jobs. Firemen, engineers, teachers. Pretty much all the usual stuff.
Low -
Menial - Mindless jobs that no one would ever want to do.
I don’t really distinguish between “white collar” and “blue collar”. There are high level “BC” jobs like a plumber or electrician and low level “WC” jobs like copy-boy.
Just about anyone has the physical and mental capacity to do your job. And I could certainly wouldn’t pass out just from handling some retard shit.
The only reason I think your job is worthy of respect is because I believe helping the less fortunate is a noble cause. I don’t “look down” on you, but I don’t envy your position.
Like you, my mom also used to clean up after patients as part of her job. I respect her job more than yours though, because she was a RN (Registered Nurse). She went to college to be a nurse, became certified or and did the nurse thing for many years. Over time, she continued to educate herself and advance to better jobs in her field. She has two advanced degrees from two different ivy league schools. Do these acomplishments not warrent more respect than someone who stayed at the entry level?
You are correct. I would not want your job. I’m a nice enough guy, but I don’t think I would have the patience to deal with your patients. But I could it if I had to.
But just because I wouldn’t like a job doesn’t mean I don’t think they are necessary. Society needs ditch diggers, doctors and everything in between.
I don’t exactly “look down” on them. I just wouldn’t want their jobs.
My job helps other big corporation stay in business. Some of those corporations employ tens of thousands of people. If you’re one of those people who gets to keep their job because I found a way for your company to sell more widgets than the competition, sounds pretty real to me.
It means the can think someone can have a crappy job without being a crappy human being. By the same token, there are plenty of people who have high profile jobs who are complete assholes.
And I do think you have an unenviable job based on MY criteria for valuing a job. Just because you want to help people doesn’t mean you can’t continue to advance in your career. Your friend pursuing the masters degree is a perfect example of that.
I’ll keep that in mind while I’m counting their tip.
I wasn’t referring to your dad specifically (everything is not about you). And I’m not judging your dad.
All I am saying is that when I hear about someone who, in spite of not having my advantages growing up, is able to achieve academic and professional success, I have a great deal of respect for them.
I never had any doubt that I would be able to attend college. I realize that many people aren’t as fortunate.
Maybe.
I haven’t been ignoring him intentionally. I’ve just been focusing on your posts. Out of courtesy, I’ll respond.
Like you said, don’t assume.
Could you be more specific about what your actual job is?
I used to be a civil engineer for awhile (that’s what my degree is in). I worked with a lot of “blue-collar” contractors. Mostly plumbers, electricians, HVAC specialists, as well as day laborers who’s job was to basically saw this studd, hammer that joist.
If you own your own a contracting business, I would rank you’re job as high, if not higher than mine. There’s a lot of risk in owning your own business and I respect anyone willing to take that risk.
Other than that, I can’t offer an oppinion unless you tell me what you do.
Nobody likes a brown-noser. But I like the idea of being able to advance as far as my ability will allow. A lot of jobs (WC and BC) don’t let you do that (ever see “Office Space”? That was my job for 2 years.)
Yeah. In college I would rather go drinking with my frat-buddies than study thermodynamics. Problem is that the types of jobs I wanted after college wanted good grades. In grad school I had a little more dicipline.
I’ll admit it. I also took a perverse pleasure knowing that I had shitty grades from a second tier school while my coworkers studdied their asses to go to Harvard and MIT. We all ended up doing the same job anyway.
A BC person can be smart and talented at their job. I saw a show on TLC about container ship crane opperators. These blue colar guys get paid $100,000 to load and unload those big ships with 50ft containers all day long. Why do they get paid so much? Cause they have to do it FAST without dropping that shit on someones head. It’s BS, but you have to be tallented to do it (my depth perceptions sucks so I would plant those containers in the ocean).
I didn’t really mean to imply that white-collar jobs are better than blue collar jobs. WC and BC are really more of an attitude than a job description in my oppinion. I tend to be more WC. I dress preppy, I like fancy restaurants and trendy bars and clubs, and my jobs tend to be in office parks. Growing up, I worked a lot of low and menial level BC jobs until I finished my degree (ie box factory worker, injection molding machine operator, fast food worker, tree farm uh guy). Those jobs sucked but there are a lot of BC jobs that require skill (carpenter for example).
In general, though, it seems to me that the average WC job has more opportunity to make more money. On the other hand, BC jobs don’t have all the trappings of “right house”, “right car”, “right neighborhood” which can suck away all your disposable income.
I suggest reading “The Millionaire Next Door”. They cover this topic in more detail.
Well, by definition, having a degree makes a person ‘educated’. That doesn’t mean they will do something worthwile with it. But I can see your point. Every college has it’s dumbasses. There are also a lot of really bad colleges out there.
It’s not really meant to be a swipe. A good anology would be a person who plays B-Ball out on the playground every day and never goes out for the school team. They may be just as good or better than everyone else, but they won’t know unless they try out. Also, I think getting a degree is a good think for a number of reasons:
-It’s good to have just in case
-For better or worse, people actually think you are an expert in that subject as opposed to having dabled in a few courses
-It’s always good to complete something
Ideally, it would be something you are interested. I studied Civ Engineering and hated every second of it. I would have probably prefered Architecture instead.
Yeah, maybe I was exagerating. But some jobs are like that. The top consulting firm that recruited at my school offered grads $120,000 with a $30k signing bonus. Unless you are some kind of industry expert, they only really hire right out of school (weird, huh?). Marginally less (my firm) means about half that.
Although, one woman I know who recieved an offer from the first firm was a total moron who couldn’t even do her stats homework.
Man, I wish I could get hit by a bus. Then I can sue and never have to work again.
I agree. I’m competitive, but I also like to enjoy my life. But, someone who is hard core and just into their career may have an advantage over me and may advance further in their career.
I think that addresses the core of my stance that job/education corresponds to level of respect. Take for example a person who went to Harvard Business School and landed a job at McKinsey & Co. (one of the top consulting firms in the world). Maybe they were just really smart and it came easy. Maybe they just worked their ass off since high school. In either case, having that kind of job would likely indicate that they have at least one quality I find admirable.
On the other hand, that person could be such completely arrogant jackass that they would lose all my respect.
Less worthy of what?
Like anything, there is a hierarchy. Let me give you an example. In my profession (management consulting) there is a distinct hierarchy of firms. What firm you work at can affect things like salary and future job prospects. Like lawyers, however, you don’t find too many starving mgmnt consultants.
Another list:
Top stragegy firms:
McKinsey, Bain, Boston Consulting Group
Elite ‘boutique’ firms
A.T. Kierney, Mercer
Big 5
Accenture, Delloite & Touche/Delloitte Consulting, KPMG
Ernst & Young, PWC
Internet consulting firms
Sapient, Scient, Viant
and so on…
It’s not as defined as I made it out, however. A partner at any of these firms can have a $1 m salary
msmith, I didn’t think your use of “retard shit” was a very nice thing to say, so I started a (rather mild) rant about it in the Pit. I just think you pushed it too far with that one. No, I don’t want to to be a big nasty ugly pit thread, and I assume it won’t be. But that wasn’t very nice, the way you worded that. Maybe the pit thread will sink to the bottom like a stone, maybe not. But I just wanted to air that out somewhere else.
You have been speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. You seem to say something rather inflammatory, and then backslide later on. You can’t have it both ways. You say you think “less” of a burger flipper, but later on, you say you “don’t judge someone by their resume”. Which is it? It can’t be both. You say you have some respect for my job because it helps people, but you almost simultaniously diminish it down to “retard shit”. That wasn’t very nice, and it kinda negates anything (grudgingly) charitable that you may have (half-ass) said about it.
I am in the middle of some chores, so I’ll ramble more later.
msmith537: Thanks for the reply. And just to clarify I don’t hold anything against you particularly, I just suspect we have a somewhat different world view . Now then…
Quite correct. I retract my comment .
I am a journey-level Water Reclamation Plant Operator ( technically I am a Wastewater Plant Operator by official job title and state certification, but I haven’t worked directly in wastewater in years ). I work the graveyard shift as the lead operator ( co-lead a few days, there are two journeyman and one assistant assigned to shift with overlapping days off, with two, including one journeyman, always on duty. All three are present on Monday evenings ). The position is essentially unsupervised ( there is one supervisor who works day shift M-F ) and I have full responsibility for the running of the facility on my shift. Including being answerable to the State Water Resource Control Board which has the authority to yank my license in the event of malfeasance or extreme incompetence ( which has happened and ended a few careers ). The job entails process control, emergency response, and preventive maintainence on equipment.
The largest part of the job is process control simply because it requires continual batteries of water chemistry tests to be run every shift. We have gnat’s-ass tight standards ( we treat watewater effluent for use in the cooling towers at a refinery so they don’t have to use drinking water - typically we treat ~ 3.5 million gallons a day ), and the process, while simple in theory, is highly persnickety due to the constantly changing water quality of the treated wastewater we’re “re-treating”. It requires two large complete sets of tests ( orthophosphates, chlorides, free and total chlorine, turbidity, suspended solids, Mg and Ca hardness, two types of alkalinity, and NH[sub]3[/sub], each from two to five sample points depending on the sample ) per shift, plus hourly grabs for free and total chlorine at two points, plus graveyard handles the 24-hour composites ( which is from two points and adds Fe and Si to the larger list of tests above ). We tweak the process anywhere from twice to 30 times a shift depending on the situation. A lot of the adjustment is by “feel”, rather than text-book. We have unusual operating circumstances and it’s a bit of an art . Fuck-ups can be catastrophic, though not generally in a life-threatening way. Though we did have a pump that pumps 97% sulfuric acid for pH control, blow-up a few weeks ago. Dissolved a good bit of concrete .
Graveyard also gets the daily paperwork and readings. Oh and there’s always a certain amount of data entry ( about 5 spread sheets need to be filled out each shift, plus three more on grave ).
State certification ( except for the entry-level training certificate, which is good for a maximum three-year apprenticeship ) is by examination and presupposes a certain level of experience and education, varying with the grade of certification. And the fuckers charge you up the ass for it . It’s like a much easier version of the BAR, I suppose, only on wastewater treatment. Lots of algebra and word problems. Higher level exams are heavy on regulation and state law. They actually give degrees in this field, but it’s not necessary.
Like I said, it’s essentially a trades-type job, like an electrician. At least we get paid the same as the electricians at my job .
I’ll add that it is snivel service ( yep, I’m a lazy govt. employee and have sworn an oath to the State Const. of CA in the presense of a licensed notary ) and except for my first two days a week ( which is the weekend, starting tonight ) it’s generally a mellow work environment. Part of the job is waiting for something to go wrong and when it’s quiet there can be a few hours of downtime a night. It’s a good lazy man’s job as long as you can rouse yourself when the need strikes.
Nothing wrong with that, though I’m hardwired differently. It is not a real good option at my job anyway, partly because of the failings common to so many burecracies. More than a few members of lower management around here have spoken wistfully of taking a demotion. It’s that bad. But at my level it is simply occasionally annoying. And I am insulated by my remoteness ( I transferred to this job partly for that reason - I like peace and quiet ).
Now see I was never like that. My partying was epic, but confined to a half-dozen occasions a year. I was generally a good student and generally good grades. I loved college, which is why I went for 15 years. I just didn’t stress about it and was content with the A- instead of the A.
I see your point, but largely disagree. I know a number of very professional WC types who go to fancy restaurants and clubs that also like to go bass fishing in their overalls. And vice versa for BC folk. I think you’re stereotyping too much. I think the job description is the ultimate source of the definition. But that’s another Great Debate.
I might add as an aside, without any criticism of what makes you happy in life, that for myself, I can’t stand dressing up, love good restaurants but won’t go anywhere I have to dress up or stand in line for more than 15 minutes, and think trendy bars and clubs are unbelievably obnoxious ( unless a great band is playing ). But oddly enough, I find fairly green, wide-open business parks strangely attractive. Go figure .
The exceptions are numerous. But, yes, I agree.
I find the very concept of the above unbelievably odious. If there is anything wrong with a stereotypical WC minset, it’s that. Don’t get sucked in, dude. Be a rebel and buck the trend . Nothing wrong with driving a Civic. They’re damn good little cars .
Wrong, wrong, wrong. I couldn’t disagree more. Being well-educated means having a good education. It’s not just the dumbasses. A very bright person who has BA in, say, Business Administration, who skirted the GE requiement as much as possible, taking as few science and humanities courses as they could get away with, and who barely paid attention beyond the minimum necessary to get a passing grade in those classes he/she couldn’t avoid, is not well-educated in my book. Same for anyone else, a physics major that avoids economics, a biologist that avoids english lit. . You don’t have to be a renaissance man. But if all you know is one narrow specialty, you’re not educated. I’ve met far too many of those sad people. They’re not a majority, necessarily, But there’s a lot of them.
If I ran a university, I would require every single person to take an extra year to complete a minor in a field unrelated to their major. That would be a start.
Re: Getting a degree:
Can’t argue there. I agree.
That’s an ego problem . For myself, I don’t find that argument very compelling.
Ehhhh…Maybe. Personal values muddy this one considerably. I think it’s a somewhat simplistic view, but I’ll grant more would likely agree with you than not.
Sure. And such a person is an utter loser who is not worth emulating in any way, shape, or form. Or admiring. I have met those people. They have all been boring assholes and a waste of humanity. Not that I have a strong opinion on the matter or anything .
Just out of sheer curiosity, where do you rank PricewaterhouseCoopers? My buddy in Melbourne works for them.
Anyhow as to this whole argument on jobism. IMO it all still boils down to:
a.) Not treating people differently as human beings based on their employment.
b.) Not pre-judging people as human beings and assuming a particular set of personal characteristics automatically lines up with any particular job.
c.) Treating all employment as having merit od some sort.
I assume from your comments that you agree with the above, but have some personal difficulty on a practical level with point b.) .
d.)Not judging people by implied social class or economic standing.
This ties into b.) and again, you seem to agree in principle, but sometimes balk in practice.
e.)Not assuming a higher-paying job or one requiring a degree is automatically more meritous to society.
I’m guessing this is your biggest stumbling block in agreeing with me. Though, you can correct me if I’m wrong.
I’ll agree with you and very slightly disagree with yosemitebabe ( maybe ) in that I think that it is natural to make hiearchies in one’s mind. The human mind tends to work that way. I’m not free from sin in that regard myself - I have a bigoted and somewhat jaundiced views of a lot of MBA’s. That’s my own problem. But it is arrogant to assume your views are right at all, let alone all of the time. And it’s morally bankrupt to act on them.
f.) All human beings should be dealt with as individuals whenever possible. And that’s the bottom line.
Tamerlane, I just have to say, you rock! You have a way of expressing thins in a far more cogent manner than I am!
Yeah, in this aspect, your job is simular to mine. It definitely has its busy moments, but there is also “quiet time”, where I get to study my books, and work on the laptop. And, when I come home from work, I am not all stressed-out and obsessing about it. It’s a good job for me. I am proud of my job, and I’m glad it is one that helps people. (My mom is SO proud of me, she keeps on telling me I should never quit! But it just doesn’t pay enough for me to contemplate that.)
That’s exactly it with my job as well. I would NEVER want to advance in it, because the headache would be too much, I’d never have a life. (Supervisors are almost always
“on call”, and rarely can call their free time their own.) I have my own aspirations - off of work. My art, pottery, etc. I’m proud of my job, but it pays the bills.
And while I am rambling - there has been a major issue on this thread: You just don’t know what a person is doing outside of their job. Frankly, I think I’ve done quite a bit that people don’t get to see from just my job. (Especially considering I’m on that “low level”, and all.) I got into computers late (just a few years ago) and have pretty much self-taught myself Mac and PC. I am now what I’d call “beginner/intermediate” with Photoshop (a program people consider to have a high learning curve) and I am studying a lot of Photsohop books right now, because I have this crazy dream to certify with Adobe. I have also taken to Adobe Illustrator, even though it has a high learning curve as well. (Though I am in more of the beginning stages with it.) And then there’s my obsession with web authoring (I maintain three domains) and pottery, art, and on and on. My off-work life is a big deal to me. My job, while I’m proud of it, only tells a certain amount about me. And I alluded to this many times in this thread, but hey - doesn’t matter, does it? For those of us who have a lot of hobbies, or private non-job-related aspirations - that must mean nothing, right? Because if our jobs are low-level, we are too.
I think I have met people like this too. And I have developed a theory about why some people are so fixed upon their inherent “superiority” to people with a lesser educational pedegree. They figure, if they are going to be so obsessed with it, everyone better know it, and everyone better acknowledge it. I also think they see a degree as a “ticket to superiority” that everyone damned well better recognize.
Oh, I can agree that we all do the hierarchy thing, I just said that my criteria for judging a person were far more “dimensional” than msmith’s. I try to take several factors into account. A big one for me is a person’s hopes and dreams. Do they have any? Do they hope to be more than what they are now? If a burger flipper has hopes and dreams (being great at crochet, or an expert on Shakespeare, or whatever) then they go up my imaginary heirarchy. If the lawyer is too vain or stubborn to admit he needs to learn new things, he goes WAY down in my imaginary heirarchy. And I sometimes see the heirarchy as more of a lateral thing. There are just so many different factors to a person, it’s hard to have it so “up and down”, or B&W. A job is one of the things I take into account, but it’s low on the list. How a person treats people around them, if they have hobbies (and hopes and dreams) that tells me a whole lot more about a person.
. But I might suggest, as I think yosemitebabe is doing, that your view of the world and people’s place in them seems to be excessively ‘black and white’.
). One of my co-workers will break 100k with overtime this year.
. Several of my blue-collar co-workers do have degrees ( biochemistry, marine biology, business, etc. ).
.
That’s sad.