Exactly . I’m reasonably good at what I do. I take pride when I do it well and I am embarassed if I muff something. I don’t particularly mind going to work. I think it is a worthwhile endeavor, particularly in an environmental sense. And much as I mock the idea at times, I do take some small quiet pride in being a Civil Servant. Sometimes . Heck, I’ll even obsess and stress while on the job.
But I don’t take it home. I don’t define myself by it. I have only a marginal academic interest in it. Basically it is a mostly painless way to support the rest of my life which is given over to my hobbies and interests.
And I admit, I like the financial security. Benefits are very good ( like most govt. jobs ), retirement generous, and even by Bay Area standards, the pay is pretty decent. But I could easily make another 10-15k a year if I worked all the available overtime. I work almost none ( I am notorious for it, actually ), because my off-time is far more valuable to me.
Hate to just cheerlead. But, quite .
Given the discussion so far, I agree. But to be fair maybe we’ve been talking around each other a bit. msmith actually has me a little confused as to exactly where he’s coming from on that. I’m not sure if we’re not all arguing slightly different points .
Sounds a lot like my job! And yes, I work for the state too, (though a different state) and yeah, the benefits are GREAT, even if the pay isn’t in my case.
Exactly. Oh, of course I am proud of what I do, and I think the experiences I get on my job have been good for my character, and have given me some “real life” experience which I am glad I possess. But yeah - a big plus in my job is that not only does it allow me some reading time AT work, but I leave the job with (usually) zero thought or worries about it.
And I also have to say, your attitude sounds a lot like my dad’s. He had SO many hobbies, and interests. He was proud of being a Postal Worker, but enjoyed poking fun of it at times as well. He was a postal worker for 41 years, and could have easily made supervisor many times. But he didn’t want it, because he wanted to be home with his family, have time to travel, listen to his music, and read. He definitely had the right idea, I think!
Exactly! I am the thorn in the side (well, not completely) of my bosses, because I just refuse to do much overtime. My off-time is too valuable, and I almost always have set plans. I remember one time my supervisor called me while I was at work, asking me if I could stay another shift (work 16 hours.) I refused, because I had a kiln at home that needed tending to. (It wouldn’t have blown up without me there, but it is NOT a good idea to keep a kiln unattended for too long, besides, I had to “tweak” it a little.) I know my supervisor was a little bewildered by the kiln story, but hey! I gotta get a firing in whenever I can! Pottery is important, OK?
Could be. I think you have it right though - he seems to be having difficulty with certain issues “in practice”. It appears to me that he may want to do lipservice, and claim that he believes certain things. But at the same time, other statements he makes (and an overall attitude he displays) directly contradict that.
It’s important for me to have financial stability. I don’t wan’t to have to worry every month about how I’m going to pay the rent. When I have kids, I don’t want to have to tell them they have to go to State U instead of their first choice because there isn’t enough money.
Since I have to work, I want a job that’s intellectually stimulating. I also want to work with people I find interesting.
yosemitebabe
Then I will retract ‘retard shit’ and replace with with ‘fecal excrement of the mentally challenged’.
I will also eventually check put your Pit thread.
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*Originally posted by featherlou *Just out of sheer curiosity, where do you rank PricewaterhouseCoopers? My buddy in Melbourne works for them.
PWC=PricewaterhouseCoopers. They are one of the Big 5. I would rank them as lower big five because I work (or will be in the fall) for one of their competitors (also in the big 5).
Who’s talking about society? I’m just worried about what job will be the most meritous to me.
In principle, I agree that everyone should be treated equally.
In practice though, I don’t hold every position in the same regard. Take, for example, a tollboth operator or a Burger King employee. The first thing i think when I meet an adult who has a job like this is “why is this person working in such a low paying job with no opportunity for advancement?” I’m sure part of it is the fact that when I worked those type of jobs in high school, my adult coworkers were either immigrants of questionable legal status and little command of the English language, uneducated adults, or people who couldn’t or wouldn’t find other work. In other words, people who have very different backgrounds, values, and ambitions from mine.
Maybe it’s a mistake to over-generalize people. But when I meet someone who never went to college, I wonder “what do I have in common with this person?” Is this person going to be think (like Tamerlane) that because I have an MBA, that I’m some arrogant, over-educated, workaholic?
Let’s face it, social and economic status matter’s to some extent. I have a friend who’s getting a divorce partly because her career is starting to take off while her husband is content to just lounge around and work some joe-average job. If you have ambition, you don’t want to hang around someone who thumbs their nose at the fact that you’re working hard to achieve your goals.
Tamerlane and yosemitebabe, your attitude and work ethic sound very similar to some of the people I worked with at my last job. To them, it was just a job. At 5 o’ clock they were out the door like Fred Flintstone sliding down that dino-crane. Now, they worked hard while they were there, but they lacked that extra something that the consultants working at our company had. That would be fine, but my coworkers would also complain all day that the outside consultants got the best assignments, more money and most of the respect. In other words, they wanted the rewards but they didn’t want to put in the extra effort.
Now, if you are happy with your positions, nothing I say should matter to you. Personally, I couldn’t stand to be in the same job for 15 years. I want a job where I’ll be challenged and have the opportunity to learn and try new things.
A word from someone with direct multi-country experience: I don’t know that Americans are more job prestige obsessed than anyone else I’ve met in a good three continents worth of work experience, I would hazard the opinion that job prestige tends to play an outsized role in American society, whereas other forms of prestige crop up in other socieies. Jobism in this case is just one manifestation of prestige seeking – I plead guilty to this I might add. Crops up unconsciously.
And on the sideline debate, although I believe I would rank very highly indeed in mrsmith’s list by the evident criteria I really have to say snobish and shallow are the adjectives I would choose to characterize the content of the stated behaviour.
Pity that. Fraid I share some of this, which I regret. Poor upbringing rather too concerned with these kinds of things, difficult to shake off.
What I have been trying to get at is what if any significance a college degree would have had if your father led his life the way he wanted? Apparently he had few regrets. It still isn’t clear to me if he regretted not getting a degree. It is abundantly clear that you see it as a failing. At the very least a missed opportunity, but then only if he felt he should have gotten it.
Myself, I learned my lessons a long time ago about judging people by their occupation. You can make broad generalizations and jump to conclusions but neither will tell you much about any particular individual. For some people their “occupation” is who they are, for others their “occupation” is simply a means to an end. Not much would get done without both types of people.
Finally, you don’t have to feel proud of your job (you should take pride in it though). You shouldn’t expect others to be proud of you for the occupation you have chosen. You are taking advantage of a niche you can fill and are being rewarded financially for it. I do tip my hat to you for helping those at a disadvantage and likely doing it at rather low pay. I am not “proud” of you though, if you did this work as charity, that I would praise you for. Having too much pride in yourself and/or what you do is an open invitation to unhappiness.
Judge me however you want. I don’t have a bachelor’s degree. Yet I have attended both a JC and a State University (not necessarily in that order). I was accepted to one of the most prestigious science and technology universities in this country. Yet did not attend. I’m not a lawyer, a banker, or doctor. I am a mechanical designer, a glorified draftsman. I make blueprints and drawings of parts. Occasionally I design the parts, often with very explicit instructions from an engineer. Some knowledge is required and most employers require a vocational degree, but this isn’t rocket science. I love it. I can be creative, I can define standards (within my department), I don’t have to take my work home, and it pays well enough for me to do things I really want to do. Granted a larger income would allow me to afford to do more things, but the added commitment would likely detract from the time/pleasure to do them. Some people look down on me, I wasted my potential they say, so what. Those same people are the ones I see stressing about deadlines and promotions and the fact that they never have time to do “what they want to do”. I don’t owe the world anything and I certainly don’t expect to leave my mark on it. When I have kids, if they see my lack of a degree as a “failure” or a “tragedy”, that’s their problem. I don’t need it to feel good about myself, and neither should they.
Well, that’s certainly fair. It sounds like you have your own set of priorities that you have chosen for yourself. My only concern then, would be to not dismiss other people’s priorities simply because they are not the same as yours. Personally, I don’t care how much money I make, as long as I can live comfortably (and my level of comfort is a lot of people’s idea of poverty). Doing a job I enjoy is my second priority, after having time to do all the things I’m interested in outside of work. I think you can tell from my priorities that I’ll never be climbing a corporate ladder.
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<snip>
I wanted to point out that I wasn’t the original person asking this, just for the sake of clarity.
Collounsbury, one of my motives in starting this debate was to increase awareness of the attitudes that most of us (including myself) have taken for granted. I became aware of these attitudes when I found myself on the receiving end of them, and then questioned whether they were acceptable or not. I decided “not”.
Well, you’ll get no argument from me . As it happens, I partially sacrificed the second for the first . As a historian or a field biologist ( the two jobs I could qualify for, that I’d find intellectually more pleasing ), I’d make about 1/3 to 2/3 of my current salary. That’s simply what those fields pay shrug. I could certainly make more working for a environmental consulting firm on the basis of hourly wage. But the that sort of work is erratic ( full-time positions are rare ) and the chances for moral compromise significantly greater ( nothing worth going into detail on, but some of those firms are slightly shady ).
As it is I am satisfied having a job with some scope for independent action and analysis. It does require some thought and skill, just enough to keep it from getting stultifyingly boring. And by and large I have the freedom to make the big decisions.
I settle for getting most of my intellectual stimulus outside of work. But it is a compromise.
That was me that asked, not featherlou . Obviously I don’t loath all MBA’s, as my friends include two, including the PWC employee .
Good .
Understandable, neither do I. Nor do most people, I imagine. As long as you recognize that every job has some merit, I don’t think we disagree.
Ah, now here is where we start to diverge. I don’t do this. Why? A differing world view than you, I suppose. Although my father has a doctorate in physics from Cornell, he grew up on a subsistence farm and I was raised in a intellectually stimulating, but very status-unconscious, working class-mentality household. Money was necessary, but the pursuit of money and status was not emphasized, perhaps even mildly frowned upon as “shallow.”
I make no claim that such an attitude is a superior one. But you seem to regard status as very important and it probably seems natural to you to size people up that way. Whereas for me those thoughts often come after the fact ( “Hmmm…That person is kind of boring. But then so is his job.” shrug ). Still a wee bit judgemental, but less so, I think, because I formulate my opinion after I know them a little as a person.
No maybe about it . We all do it. But it’s a bad habit and something you should actively try not to do. You certainly shouldn’t embrace it.
You see, I understand where you’re coming from. There is a Pavlovian response that comes from dealing with dipshits. Whether it’s me frowning at the engineers at work for fucking up yet another project, or you getting tired of continually getting shit from some blue-collar grunt making fun of “the college boy”, we all get burned out and start judging people as groups. Stereotypes do come from somewhere.
But we should try to avoid falling into that trap as much as possible. Stereotypes are also frequently false.
Now, now - Did I ever say in what way I’m biased ? You actually have it backwards . My views actually tend to run like this ( disclaimer, I have two friends who are gay…err…have MBA’s ):
1.) Arrogant - No, not necessarily.
2.) Overeducated? No. Undereducated, perhaps.
3.)Workaholic? No, not necessarily ( nor do I necessarily think this is a uniformly bad trait - More power to you, if that’s your druthers ).
My problem is that I think business is all too often a default major in college. Folks can’t decide or don’t know what they’re interested and feel pressured to choose something, anything. And instead of kicking around a year or two and finding what they really like, I see quite a few choose business because they figure they can at least make a buck. So I’ve found that some MBA’s end up a little frustrated and miserable. Also I’ve observed a seemingly higher proportion of business ( and accounting as well ) majors having that lack of educational breadth problem I was discussing earlier. It’s hardly universal, but I’ve seen it.
Is this an unfair generalization? Absolutely . As I get older, I’m realizing that more and more. Maturity always helps .
To be perfectly honest, both to you and myself, I bet I’m a worse snob when it comes to education than you are ( the difference being I consider actual poseession of a degree to be a triviality ). Thing is, I know that’s wrong. I’ve proven to myself over and over, that that is a bullshit attitude to have. I’ve met some very bright, wonderful people that I admire in a number of ways that have very little formal education. A few of them at my job. So I try my hardest not to be an elitist about it.
Well, I’m glad you said similar and not the same, because I don’t think it’s a very good parallel at all . Not from your description, anyway. But then we are in what I suspect are very different work environments and it’s probably apples and oranges to compare them. At my job, consultants have historically been looked upon by management and employees alike as lazy and not worth the money. But that’s what you get when you have a state law mandated low-bid process .
Absolutely . At least as long as you are civil. For myself this has never been about your opinion of my job, or even your opinion of me. I could care less . Rather I’ve been interested in why you think the way you do and whether this attitude of pre-judging based on perceived prestige is something ( like with me or, apparently, Collounsbury ) you regret doing and try to avoid. Or whether you think it is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint to hold and live by. And if it was the former, which at one point you seemed to imply but now appears you are somewhat equivocal about, I wanted to argue against that view.
Mission accomplished from my end .
And I’d rather shoot myself than have to wear a tie and jacket to work every day for the rest of my life . We all make our choices based on what’s best for us .
Tamerlane, you are such an even-tempered, genteel fellow, I wish I took after you more! I think you have expressed yourself on this thread in a far better manner than I have.
I have to address Hibbins here, in regards to my father never getting his degree:
Wrong. Very wrong. I thought it was a shame, but “failing”? No, I don’t believe so.
To give an example: just about now, in the Sierras, there is a fabulous ceramic workshop with famed ocarina maker Brian Ransom. (He makes clay musical instruments.) My sister, quite a fabulous ocarina maker in her own right, can’t make it to the workshop, and Ransom is one of her FAVORITES. So, it’s a terrible shame that she’s not going to be able to go. If the situation were a little different, and if she had a chance to go but decided against it for some reason, I’d have the attitude of “What a shame, I think she was wrong to miss out.” And that’s the way I feel about my dad missing out on college. College, or any kind of education, is a treat in its own right, at least for everyone in our family. My dad would have LOVED to have taken some serious Classical music appreciation class, for one thing. He lived vicariously through me when I took a music class (and was a bit of a pest, to be honest.) So, it was wrong, and a shame, that he missed out on that experience. It was a shame that he missed out on the Biology classes, and History classes, and all the subjects in which he was so interested. That is all there was to it. It is always a shame for someone to miss out on doing something that they’d enjoy. And so, I wish my dad hadn’t done that. He didn’t seem overly bothered my missing out, but he probably had years to get used to the idea.
Msmith - I am afraid “retracting” your statement about “Retard shit” isn’t quite good enough. An apology would be more fitting. And I see you have shot yourself in the foot over on the Pit thread, so 'nuff said about that here.
As far as folks like Tamerlane and I scooting out of our work to get home - I have no problem with that. And no, I don’t bitch about not getting any sort of special promotions - I don’t bitch much at all about my job. (Except pay, and how understaffed we are!) If this job paid a little better, I am sure I could stay in it for quite a while, I just don’t care about advancing myself in this field. It’s quite nice where I am, and I’m happy.
I have other aspirations. I’ve repeated them multiple times. (I know I am sounding like I’m tooting my own horn about them, actually.) So, why do I need to stress out about “getting ahead” at my current job, when I am studying to (hopefully) Certify for Adobe Photoshop? (I hear it’s a hard test - yikes.) I’m also learning Illustrator, web design, yadda yadda yadda. And I plan to start getting my pottery in galleries again. I always did pretty well selling it in shops and galleries in L.A., (My pottery was even in the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite once! ) but since I moved out of state, I’ve gotten out of the groove. But I’m getting back in it, fast! (I have to add here, at risk of more horn-tooting, it’s no small thing to have your pottery in art galleries, and yes, I’m proud that apparently my pottery is good enough to sell in them.) And that’s part of the reason why I scoot out of work at quittin’ time. I like my job, I’m proud of it, but I have other facets to my life too. Besides, I think my supervisors appreciate the fact that I am low-key, laid-back, not a brown-noser, and not “trying to make points”. I just quietly do my job and don’t cause them trouble or concern.
Hmm…I don’t think “pride” is what I am talking about here. My mom is insanely proud of me, that’s enough…
No…I don’t think I am excessively proud. I can’t remember if it’s on this thread or the BBQ Pit thread, but I mention several times that I don’t think I deserve a halo. I don’t think I am demanding that everyone be proud of me and my job. That seems to be a bit much. It’s a job, and I know I could be better at it. However, I think my job deserves respect, and I don’t appreciate comments like “retard shit”, or someone with a “curling their nose” attitude about it.
Well, that would be crazy and rather horrible for your kids to feel that way about you. If you are a good parent (and I’m sure you will be) they will of course be very proud of you. I hope I have sufficiently explained how I felt about my dad missing out on college. It was just a shame that he didn’t take advantage of a free education, dammit!
In case you haven’t figure it out yet, I am really proud of him. In fact, one of the domain sites I am working on is a photography site dedicated to all his travel photography. (I used his name as the domain name.) He traveled a lot, and took GREAT photos. I told him he should enter his photos in competitions, but he was always too modest. I don’t know what he’d think of me sharing his many photos on the web (but mom is pretty tickled about it.) I suspect he’d be pleased.
Sorry to harp on this point. It just seems that you carry some resentment that your father never got a college degree and therefore it isn’t obvious to others how knowledgeable he was. You shouldn’t even feel shame or that “it was a shame”. We all play the hand life deals us. Sometimes we make tough decisions. IMHO one of the keys to leading a happy and fulfilling life is not second guessing those tough decisions.
I can sympathize somewhat; my father also served in WWII and used his GI Bill for things other than college. He was a very knowledgeable man on many topics; throughout his life he did take the opportunity to take extension classes and community education classes on subjects that interested him. He just never had any desire to get a degree. There were more job opportunities as a laborer or an equipment operator in the mines in our area than jobs for degreed professionals.
Regarding pride and being proud, I made that comment only because you have mentioned a number of times that you are proud of your job. I was going for a whole take pride in the work you do, not in the type of work you do. As far as respect for your job, I respect it just as much as any other vocation. Part of the root of this whole jobism issue is the mistaken belief that some occupations are demanding of more respect than others.
I can’t believe you think potters are the most interesting and fun people around. You get all dirty and sit behind a wheel all day, you might as well be a trucker.
It seems to me that you have already made up your mind on this, and no matter HOW many ways I explain it, you’re just going to keep believing what you want. You insist on parsing words, and trying to tell me what I mean by the words I use. I really am all amazement that you can INSIST that you know better than me what my feelings are in regards to my dad. And I am all astonishment that you can read this thread, and still think that I think “less” of my dad because he failed to get a degree. And, I might ask - have you read the “arrogance of academics” thread? I give a link to it on the first page of this thread. I expressed my feelings quite adamantly on that thread as well.
It’s just the last thing I’d do - to judge someone who was smart, capable, and bright poorly because they didn’t have a degree. (Especially since I don’t have a degree myself - you did know that, right?) So for you to get that message out of all I’ve written here is just bizarre. But you seem quite motivated to believe that, no matter what I write, or no matter HOW many different ways I explain it. Either you are not reading my posts, or have just made up your mind before you’ve read them. Whatever.
Sure, fine. I don’t expect extra respect, just the same respect everyone else gets. No problemo.
It’s not so much that I have made up my mind, it is that I have drawn a conclusion based upon what I have read in this thread (I will get to the arrogance of academics thread soon). I was not sure of my conclusions so I asked for clarification. Your responses seemed inconsistent with some of your earlier statements. I asked for further clarification, you feel attacked, for that I apologize.
I don’t imply that I know anything about your feelings. I do get an impression of them though based upon what you have posted. I also didn’t mean to imply that you think less of your father for not having gotten a degree. Rather I got the impression that you feel it wrong or that he was cheated by not getting a degree. Now all of this could be way off base and that is why I wanted clarification.
It seems to me that a degree carries some weight with you. Now it may be that you don’t see it in your posts, or it may be that I am reading too much into some of your statements. I am not judging you based on your statements in this thread, just trying to get a little more insight.
Yeah. I have only mentioned it several times - I think it is an interesting thread, and I fail to see how you could read it and still think I’d be “ashamed” of someone who was smart and talented just because they had a degree. But then again, all my explanations here haven’t seemed to make a dent…soo…
“Irritated” is more like it, and thank you for your apology. I just think you are trying to make something very simple very complicated. Simply put, I think it is a shame that my dad missed out on a free education, something he would have enjoyed, whether he got a degree or not. JUST GOING would have been a cool thing for him. And if I were going to be upset by anyone in this whole story, it would be society for not always recognizing merit in a person if they don’t have a degree. But why would I be disappointed or feel less about my DAD, over something that is society’s problem?
Read the damned academics thread. I think I have made it clear, particularly in the Arts (which is my “area”) a degree holds NO extra weight for me. (But, well, I just have this hunch you might still disagree. Oh well…I’m starting to get used to it…)
Oops, that should be: “I fail to see how you could read it and still think I’d be “ashamed” of someone who was smart and talented just because they had no degree.”
Yosemitebabe is full of resentment. Not just about her father, but her own station in life as well.
If you look back to the beginning of the thread, Yosemitebabe immediately jumped all over me when all I had said was that I respect certain jobs more than others. Which of course escalated into her starting a Pit thread which resulted in nothing but a lot of name calling.
And there you see how jobism starts. I have been stereotyped as everything from shallow to character created by the obscure writter who wrote ‘Less Than Zero’ and ‘Amererican Psycho’. All this because I expressed some pride in my achievements.
I didn’t see it that way at all–she’s been the voice of reason compared to some of the things you’ve been saying (the whole ‘retard shit’ statement was just plain rude, IMO).
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Your rather cool reception here doesn’t stem from the fact that you express pride, but that you seem hell-bent on denying the same pride to people who rank below you in the social hierarchy.
As sort of an aside, I’d love to put you through Milgram’s social science experiment. It’d be interesting to see where you placed.
Once again, I have to say it. You never cease to amaze.
I started what has been called by one poster as “the most polite flame in the history of the Internet”. I started a Pit thread which told you that the “retard shit” remark wasn’t very nice. In fact, it was a LOT MORE than “not very nice”, but I was trying to be laid-back.
And other people joined in that thread, and flamed you. Why? Because of the things you wrote there. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Oh my gosh. That thread could have gone in a totally different direction if you had wanted it to. You could have said “Ooops, sorry, I shouldn’t have said ‘retard’, my bad”. And I probably would have accepted your apology, and asked for the thread to be closed. But no. That’s not what you did, was it? And so the thread is now plugging away, with quite a few colorful flames being directed at poor li’l you. So who is to blame for that?
And the last post you just made on that thread is just priceless. You make more wretched comments about my job being merely about cleaning up shit? And you still try to come here and whine?
yosemitebabe and msmith, do you think you could keep your argument in the Pit where it belongs and leave it alone in this forum? Much obliged, pardners.
You know, that’s why I started that Pit thread in the first place. I wanted to air the “retard” thing out there, not here. Oh, here’s a link to the Pit thread.
Well, I’m still here to debate jobism. I was just attempting to point out that yosemitebabe made a lot of assumptions about what I thought of her status and her job before I actually expressed them.
The point is that jobism works both ways. If I walked into a bar full of blue collar workers while wearing my work clothes (either a suit or chinos and a buttondown), how long do you think it will be before some jackass starts making comment about the “suit” that just walked in the door? Usually, its not long.
I don’t care if everyone disagrees with me. Whats the point of a debate if there’s only one point of view?
Well, I assume you are in agreement with me that (for better or worse) there is a social hierarchy. My question for you is, other than basic courtesy and politeness, what additional respect must I show a person who I feel is far below me on the social ladder?
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. Heck, I’ll even obsess and stress while on the job.
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