Are North Americans Jobists?

Great Debates
81

**Originally posted by msmith357

The whole point of questioning Jobism (IMO) is that everyone should be treated with equal respect and dignity as a human being, regardless of the job they are doing. It has nothing to do with “the social ladder”. The fact that you feel that people are far below you on the social ladder tells me that you’re not really grasping the whole concept of not treating people differently based on the job they are doing.

How about looking at careers as a big complex of one-storey buildings, where the different occupations occupy different locations, instead of viewing careers as higher or lower on a ladder? You’ve chosen the building that houses your career of choice; other people are in other buildings. No one is higher, or lower, than anyone else; they are just in different buildings. Now, how do treat the people you meet in the common areas? Say hi, trade a few comments, maybe develop relationships with some of them that interest you. I don’t see why this model shouldn’t apply to real life also.

82

Well, I’m trying to. And in practice, I am generally polite to everyone (unless they do something that requires me to act differently). I don’t intentionally snub people or turn and walk away if I don’t think highly of their job.

Let’s turn this around a little bit. I knew a lot of people in school who came from families with money. Some, I was actually pretty good friends with. But a lot of them act differently from ‘regular’ people. Just the fact that they come from money means that they don’t have to worry about work like I do. I have a high paying job lined up, but if I didn’t, I would sure be a lot more stressed about not working. How does a person who could live forever off a trust fund relate to that? Now, If I was around this person and every time I expressed concern about not having a job, they said “can’t you just ask your parents for $$ or go to the ATM?” I think I’d start to get frusterated.

The fact of the matter is that we are not all the same. We all have different experiences and backgrounds that make it difficult to treat everyone the same. As someone who makes their living in corporate America, I have a very diferent outlook from someone who feels that corporations are faceless, evil monsters. Maybe I could hang out with that person if we had some other common interest, but I don’t want to hang out with someone with whom I have to avoid the topic of my job because otherwise they may fly into a tirade.

83

I’ve read every post of this thread (I guess I had about 4 hours to spare!) and I do agree with parts of what both Yosemite & Msmith have said.

Personally, even though it’s human nature to look down your nose at people doing more menial jobs, I try to remind myself that <b>somebody</b> has to do that kind of work. It’s easy for us to judge, but what would happen if tomorrow everyone decided that lower-paying jobs were beneath them? Who would haul our garbage away, clean our restrooms, cook our food, fix our cars, and do all the other stuff most of us wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole? I for one am glad there are people out there who are willing to do that. Also, if you think competition for good paying jobs is intense now, think of all the increased competition there would be if everyone was applying for them!?

Msmith, you do have a point in that “Jobism” works both ways. Sometimes, people who work the lower-paying blue collar type jobs are actually the worst offenders. A lot of them seem to have a Napoleon Complex or something. Make fun of the guy in the suit. It’s easier to make you feel better about your current situation by doing that. It’s almost the American Way for people to hate their bosses.

Anyway, good conversation everyone. This is my first post here. If nothing else, reading these threads is pretty damn entertaining sometimes!

84

I don’t think it’s natural, I think it’s learned. I also think this definition is more akin to elitism than “jobism”. But what would you expect from a no good HockeyBum. Hey is that sportism? :slight_smile:

I think we all draw conclusions based upon a persons occupation, and I don’t think that is necessarily bad. I think the problem lies in assuming that our conclusions are the only possibility, and acting on them.

Yosemitebabe I read the arrogance of academics thread. It didn’t answer my question. It did clarify that you don’t judge an artist by their degree, rather by how hard they work, their skill, and their desire. Unfortunately in many professions a persons “skill/mastery” is not as obvious.

I’m too lazy to go back through this thread, but I thought you qualified some of your comments with “I don’t usually” and such. Could be clouded thinking.

Qualified with “extra” which implies that a degree does carry some weight with you. Not to say that you should hold a degree as meaningless either.

[good natured spirit]
So then if I take this sentence of yours:

and remove some words and push some together I get “…I ashame that my dad missed out on a education…”
See, told you I know what you are really trying to say. :slight_smile:
[/good nature spirit]

So was "We all think he made a big mistake just a poor choice of words then?

I am probably exasperating you, so just pretend I am thickheaded and slow to get a point. No harm intended.

85

You know, I can’t win for losing in some things. If I were to say “degrees mean nothing, carry no weight”, then that would be negating the hard work many people have gone through to get them. Hard work carries extra weight with me. Doesn’t it for you? An education is a good thing, working hard and studying hard are good things, and sometimes, a degree is the end result of studying and working hard. Or not. Some people (like Tamerlane) just study hard, but never get a degree. But they still learned a lot, and studied hard. Same thing. Lots of work, I give that a lot of credit. Just like I feel like the hard work I put in at art school deserves a lot of credit. My goal was to learn more, and improve my knowledge and skills, and college helped me to do that. I am sure Tamerlane and many others feel the same way.

But, since, (as Tamerlane has said) some people can scoot through college partying and just barely getting by (I knew a lot of these types at art school) then their degree really means diddley. I sure knew a lot of those types of people, like the ones I met in art school.

[slightly irritated but good-natured spirit]

Oh well. You’ve proved it all to me, Dr. Freud. I informed my mom last night that an insightful stranger on the Internet has informed me that I have really been ashamed of my dad all these years after all. She was very amused. Oh yeah. You know me better than my mom. I’ll have to come to you for all sorts of insights and advice from now on!
[/slightly irritated but good-natured spirit]

I think it was as clear as I could make it. Just like I’d think my sister would make a BIG MISTAKE if she were to pass up an opportunity to study with that ocarina maker (if the opportunity were ever to arise). It’s simple, you made it complicated. Not my problem.

Yes, I am exasperated. No, I don’t think you are thickheaded. But I think you have some other agenda or some other “issues” that I can not possibly understand, that have prompted you to push this issue. Not a huge deal, no hard feelings, I hope.

86

This thread is a war of the wills! I love it!

I too have agreed with aspects of both sides of the jobism dilemma. Generally in arguments of this nature, I side with those who accept the world as it is, and don’t try to force their “superior” moral code on others.

But, I have stated earlier in this thread that I am a victim of jobism. To rehash, I just graduated from State U., and have any entry-level position in a small company. Those of us who are young are treated as second-class employees, though we do the majority of the work.

Now I suppose I could boo-hoo about it, and get bitter, but I just try to adapt and cope. I find loopholes in the system and make the most of it. As a typical example, when they go take two hours for lunch, that means I get three! I stop working when they leave, and then I take MY lunch (which is only an hour) when they get back! Isn’t life great? They look down on me, pay me very little, and in exchange for that, I get certain perks.

Now, I wish that I had a job which I actually had to work at, and was paid more, and valued… but that situation doesn’t exist (yet), so I get on with it.

Again, I don’t blame anyone or hold any angst… I just react to the situation I’m presented with… it makes for a less stressful day.

Aspects of this thread remind me of the scene in “Clerks” when they are discussing in high school what they should be when they graduate. Their counselor asked them what they would do if they had $1 million, and that was supposed to be their dream job. One of the 20-somethings then says that question is bullshit, because if everyone had $1 million, then nobody would clean toilets.

The two men are still clerks of convenience stores, and aren’t happy with their station in life. You know what conclusion they came up with: “SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT.” If you don’t like what you do with your life, then change it, or attempt to. Keep in mind though, that the world is not a nice place, and their is no promise of justice.

People like msmith may put down those with menial jobs not because of the Reasons they are there (which might be valid), but because sometimes they don’t aspire to anything higher. msmith is not obligated to feel sympathy though… he just sees the world as it his through his (admittedly) narrow perspective.

What I don’t understand however is why the opinion of people like msmith is important to some of the posters on this thread. IMHO, the approval-seeking is doing you more harm than good. Any pride founded on the disdain of other types of people will ALWAYS end in disappointment - especially when you gotta wake up every morning doing something you don’t want to do.

So just try and adapt and live in the world you are presented with; don’t look for justice, it’s not there.

I know that sounds like a downer, but it’s true.

87

Acco40, a certain amount of fatalism/realism is absolutely essential to live in the real world, but that doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t be discussing the problems that we see, and working towards making things better. I’m not of a nature to accept the world as it is. When I see things that I think can be improved, I want to improve them.

88

What does that mean? I assure you I have no special agenda or “issues”.

Wait, you are right I do have a special issue. It really irritates me when people use innuendo such as that quote to color a persons commentary.

If you suspect I have an agenda, hazard a guess. Won’t hurt my feelings. I’d be more than happy to acknowledge or deny any such charges. Heck I might even learn something about myself through “others” perception.

Please quit assuming you know what I think!

89

I apologize. But I hasten to add, I feel that this is exactly what you’ve been doing to me all this time.

90

yosemitebabe I forgot the smiley on that last part.

I thought there was some irony in that statement coming from me.

I’ll just chalk it up to us having rather different definitions of “mistake” and leave it at that.

91

Hibbins, a smiley would have really helped! I confess I was a bit bewildered.

Yes, let us do that.

92

You are not a victem of jobism. You, like many recent college grads, are a victim of ‘big ego’. As a recent college grad with no experience, you are not going to be given a huge responsibility. You will, however, be given the majority of the grunt work because you are the low man on the totem pole.

Until you prove yourself, you can’t expect to be treated as an equal to people who have been there 5 or 10 years.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Acco40 *
I find loopholes in the system and make the most of it. As a typical example, when they go take two hours for lunch, that means I get three! I stop working when they leave, and then I take MY lunch (which is only an hour) when they get back! Isn’t life great? They look down on me, pay me very little, and in exchange for that, I get certain perks.

[QUOTE]

You’re lucky they pay you at all. If you worked for my company and consistantly took 3 hour lunches, you wouldn’t last long. There are plenty of people who are positioning themselves to get ahead while you would be out to lunch.

I’ve had jobs like yours and trust me, you should probably look for a new job. Any place where you can take 3 hour lunches will likely lay you off or be out of business within a year or so.

Or you could try and find ways to get noticed at your company so your bosses give you more responsibility. or you could look for a job where you could actually learn something. At the very least, you could learn more about your company instead of (doing what exactly?) for three hours.

Personally, I like a similar scene from ‘Office Space’ where Peter Gibbons is talking about how his counselor asked him what he would do with $1 MM. He says he never could come up with an answer and would probably ‘do nothing all day long’. His friend replies “hell, you dont need $1MM to do nothing. I got a cousin who’s been doing that for years!”

Well, let me ask you a question. Am I supposed to be impressed by the fact that you take long lunches while your employer thinks you should be working? I would be more impressed if you told me, “while my boss is away for three hours, I’m searching high and low for a better job” or “studying how to do my job better”.

I do feel sympathy for you, however, since my last job was very similar.

93

“Office Space”… good movie. Unfortunately it’s almost a mirror of my working life right now.

I was also wondering how someone manages to take a three hour lunch without getting caught. I don’t know the situation, so I can’t say for sure, but I suspect that your three hour lunches will be discovered soon enough.

msmith, good point about how entry-level workers expect too much too soon. Sadly, this is true. Especially since the mid-1990’s economic boom and unprecidented low unemployment. Companies were begging for warm bodies, thus I think entry-level workers have developed a sense of entitlement in recent years.

94

In response, msmith and hockeybum, let me just say a couple things to clarify my situation.

Originally, I posted because I felt I was a victim of jobism. My superiors treat the “production staff” in our company as if we are second-class employees. I don’t mean second class employees like “Acco, go make me 20 more copies of this.” I mean second class like making fun of me for having to eat $.40 burritos for lunch everyday. Or coming in to work in an old pickup truck and having the nerve to park too close to my boss’s Lexus. Getting chastised for these things is DEMEANING.

I understand my role as a recent grad, but I am automatically deserving of such treatment? That, under any imaginable definition is JOBISM. It seems one of the perks of their job is to bash the production team. My boss even had the gall to say that “we were expendable” behind our backs. How can I muster the incentive to work harder for a boss who says such things? You can say all day “prove him wrong!”, and I’ve tried, and… it ain’t happenin’.

If you could imagine, like many recent college grads, I was perky, bushy tailed and ready to conquer the job world when I was left college. I expected to be challenged, I expected to at least be given the chance to make a difference, but was VERY disheartened to find that “that’s not how the world works.” There are politics at my job. I’ve found so far that to keep everyone happy is the most important thing… not the actual work you do… that was a tough lesson.

I’ve found (in my admittedly short stint thus far) that to tread on toes of co-workers and superiors will result in certain professional death. I want to change things for the better, and “make a difference” in my company, but not at the risk of offending those who have seniority over me.
They don’t want to hear about the “new guy’s” ideas, especially if it makes them look bad or incompetant.

So, like I stated in my previous post, the idealism that twinkled in these eyes in college is long since dead. Now I think of myself as a realist. I figure if I can get my work done (and then some), keep everyone happy, and still take 3 hour lunches, then more power to me.

Let me reiterate that I am not a lazy person: it’s just that the fire has been beaten out of me by the politics of my workplace. Every workplace may not be like this (at least I hope not) and I am looking for another job. But until I find one, I live as best I can IN THE NOW.

I believe I speak for many recent grads when I say that my skills are above and beyond the menial tasks they ask me to do, and I don’t feel valued at work. That isn’t jobism, I agree, but the other factors indicated, are.

That’s all I have to say about that. If you could excuse me, I’m late for lunch…

95

What usually happens is you get a manager who is more interested in sucking up to superiors than managing their team. Or sometimes they can’t delegate work so they do it all themselves. In either case, the controls are not in place for the manager to know whats going on with his team.

So what happens is, while the manager is too busy to notice you even exist, you sit at your desk for hours on end. You come back late from lunch late one day, expecting to be reamed out, and nothing happens. So the next day, you come back a little later. Then you start showing up late and leaving early.

I was talking to a recent college grad and she was saying how she wished she majored in Management so she could be a project manager or something. I’m like, “management is not a profession. You need to be an expert in some field like engineering, operations, accounting, or whatever. Companies don’t hire 22 year old kids to just to be professional managers.”

96

Acco40, excellent post. In a lot of ways, my post-college work experiences have been very similar to yours. I graduated three years ago and when I got my first job I was in for the shock of my life when I discovered how much office politics affects you. That’s not something they teach you to handle in college, and I bet most entry-level workers don’t realize how much of it goes on. You have to learn it the hard way. I especially can relate to what you said about how nobody wants to take suggestions from the “new guy”, and it’s almost best to just keep your mouth shut and not make enemies.

msmith, you’re also correct in saying that you can’t really go to school to be a manager. You have to earn it through hard work and experience. The exception to 22 year old managers might be the restaurant and fast food business though.

One last thing. I’m relatively new here. I kind of stumbled upon the StraightDope boards by accident, and have only been here a few days. Is it just my computer, or is this message board painfully slow to load?

97

Hi** HockeyBum**, glad to have you on Board. Yes, this board is painfully slow to load. Apparently, the server is groaning under the load of all this wisdom and hilarity. I think a lot of us write off even trying to get on during the day. It usually gets better evenings and weekends, though.

Acco and HockeyBum, you’ve only been in the workplace after graduating for a couple of years, and you’re this bitter already? You have to pace yourselves, my friends; you still have a LONG way to go. You’re not supposed to be this bitter until your thirties.:smiley: