Today, I was asked the question, “Are people from Spain considered white?”
I had never really thought about it before and not entirely certain how to answer the question. I wasn’t sure if how I would answer the question is accurate or just my opinion. After researching it online, I was even more confused. There were arguments on both sides, but nothing definite.
Anyway, I look to you Dopers to educate me on the topic:
Are people from Spain considered white?
Why or why not?
As opposed to what, exactly?
Decendents of the Moors certainly aren’t white. But your run of the mill Spainard…of course. Not that the classification means anything.
Huh? Why wouldn’t you classify them as white, exactly??? 
Are Italians white? Frenchmen white? Same for Spaniard…
As for the “descendants of the moors”, I doubt you would find many people able to pinpoint such an ancestor, and anyway arabs and berbers are normally classified as white too…
Considered “white” by whom?
I’m speculating that the person who asked this question was under the mistaken impression that all Spanish-speaking people are direct ancestors of people from Spain. S/he may not understand that those people with darker-colored skin who speak Spanish most likely do so because white European Spaniards conquered the land of their ancestors.
Maybe you’re thinking of the Moops. 
There are “White Moors” and “Black Moors”. The former are Arabic/Berber ethnically, and that latter are (probably) slaves or descendent of slaves of the “White Moors”.
At any rate, Spanish people are considered White, unless they are Black (or Asian, or…). In just the same way that British people are considered White, unless they are Black (or Asian, or…). The confusion probably arises because so many “Hispanics” in the US are not considered white and people equate Hispanic with Spanish.
I’m not the OP, but I’d assume they meant “white” versus “hispanic”.
If descendants of Spaniards living in the US are “hispanic” but not “white”, then wouldn’t their ancestors and relatives in spain also be “non-white”? Or is “hispanic” only a term used in the New World?
Hispanic is a linguistic classification, not a racial or ethnic classification. It’s only a racial classification because people use it that way. They can get away with that in the US because the vast majority of “Hispanics” are not from Spain.
AFAIK, Spaniards and their decendants living in the US **are not ** considered Hispanic.
Racial classification in the US is pretty much what you self-identify as. If you have a Spanish last name, no one is going to doubt your claiming to be an Hispanic. If you want to be Hispanic, you can be. If you don’t want to be, you don’t have to be. (Of course this gets cofusing for Filipinos, since they mostly have Spanish sounding last names.)
Thanks for the clarification. I’m from Canada, and I don’t know anyone who identifies as “Hispanic” (they use “Chilean” or “Mexican” or just don’t both with a label). I don’t think “Hispanic” is used much here in casual conversation.
I was only guessing at what the OP was after anyways - maybe my interpretation of what they were asking isn’t correct.
Many folks from the New World have quite a bit of Amerindian in them, hence whatever “non-whiteness” folk perceive among American hispanics. Most of those who enter this country were/are originally from lower socioeconomic classes and thus tend to be more mestizo than not, skin color frequently having some incidental bearing on status in a lot of Latin American countries.
But there are plenty of whiter than white Latin Americans and having recently visited Spain, I’d call it a pretty white country as well ;).
Classically caucasians included just about everbody living from Europe east right across into northern India, including the ME/NA. Obviously not all of those folks had the skin tone of your average Swede ( though many are in fact pretty pale - Berbers, a linguistic group, come in all shades from pale blue-eyed redheads to pure ebony ). So you have to decide on how you define “white.” A lot of race supremacist nuts claim Jews aren’t “white”, yet I work with a Jewish guy with the kind of blond hair and blue eyes than any good Nazi would envy :D.
Which just goes to show that 99.9% of the “racial” classifications that go on every day are todos toro poopo. 
“Hispanic” doesn’t exist here as a racial (as opposed to cultural) category. Hispanic just means spanish native speaker. South-americans might be called “latinos”, though quite rarely (it rather apply to music), and it still isn’t a racial identifier as it includes whites, amerindians, blacks and any possible mix of these categories.
I do believe the concept of hispanic/latino as a racial category is pretty much a north-american thing. And doesn’t make much sense IMO, even from a purely visual point of view, since an essentially 100% black Brazilian, an essentially 100% amerindian Peruvian and an essentially 100% white Chilean would theorically all belong to this “race”. It sems to me that this “hispanic race” as used in the USA means mostly “mexican immigrant of mixed ancestry”.
In my experience, mostly yes. Here nobody would classify Spanish people as anything but white, but I have no idea where the category “hispanic” starts and ends in America.
Thanks!
What I said was basically that yes, people from Spain would be considered white and that the non-whiteness of the Mexicans had to do with blending of Spanish and various tribes such as the Aztecs. By citing Manifest Destiny, early Americans thought it was okay expand through the Southwest even though it was part of Mexico. I also said that for Census purposes there are many labels but since people self-report, it’s really whatever you want to consider yourself.
It all came about because of this definition of Manifest Destiny:
“the 19th century belief that the United States had a right and a duty to expand throughout North America to spread white American culture”
Heh, I have a friend, daughter of two deeply-tanned parents of Mexican ancestry, who is also one of the whitest girls I know. She says if she stays outside for a very long time, she can get to be as tanned as I am (half Mexican-American, half Jewish-ish) We call her the “Stealth Mexican”. She tells me that she got a good bit of grief about it from the other younglings when she grew up in a highly hispanic neighborhood as a kid.
The few Americans I’ve met of fully Spanish descent (a couple in Oklahoma, more in New Mexico), most adamantly refuse any association with being Latin or Hispanic (and certainly NOT Mexican). Nope. They’re Spaniards. :rolleyes:
Did I mention that they were also kinda snobbish? Except for the guy in Oklahoma, he was pretty cool.
Racial identification consists of, I figure, about 1 part ancestry, 3 parts self-identity, and 6 parts what everyone else thinks. At one point in history, Irish people most certainly weren’t white. That’s KINDA funny if you picture a stereotypical fair-skinned Irishman in your head. That said, I am friends with a girl who on alternating days is either Korean or Irish.
On any given day, I identify as either Hispanic or Jewish. The Jewish bit can cause confusion since I’m Catholic, and not Jewish (by faith or mother-ocity). I used to identify myself as either Hebrew or Israelite until it was pointed out to me that Hebrew is a language (not an ethnicity) and while Israelite IS an ethnicity, or at least a nationality at one point, they were all mostly wiped out a while ago (and my family, able to roughly trace it’s ancestry, doesn’t trace it through ye olde Israel, but rather through Judea).
So usually my friends and I just refer to me as “The Catholic Mexican Jew Lizard.” The nickname has been a source of a couple of humorous drawings and one henna tatoo, with a lizard wearing a poncho and a wide-brimmed hat. (like the one the guy wears in “The Hebrew Hammer”)
I’ve been told (but have never looked it up anywhere to be verified) that if you go to Mexico City, you do see lots of full-out white Mexicans (who I was also told are referred to as “Anglos” to differentiate them from the white folks from the country to the north, who are called “Gringos”.)
Heh. Is “poopo” a real spanish word? I don’t feel like looking it up. 
With the exception of the Texian colonists (led by the “Father of Texas”, Stephen F. Austin), I’m not sure if there were all that many Americans settling in the Southwest until it became part of the US after the Mexican-American War.
Spanglish. It got the point across.
What about all the children born in Latin America to parents who were immigrants from Germany, or Italy, or the Middle East? Or my former co-worker, born to Croatian parents shortly after their arrival in Chile?