July 2016. Quelle surprise.
Reverse your polarity and maybe you’ll be onto something.
lol…you are make the same mistake again. Spaying and neutering is cruel…to you. Perhaps to humans who know what those things mean. To the animal? They probably don’t enjoy the discomfort. After that fades from memory (when the discomfort ends) they don’t care and don’t notice or realize what it means, why it happened or even who did it.
As Shodan says, they aren’t small furry people. They don’t think like humans, they don’t have the world view of humans, or the empathy or understanding of humans. They aren’t human.
Reminds me of a very old The Duplex cartoon: The Duplex Dog is talking to another dog and says something (doesn’t matter what) about his master. The other dog says “What’s a ‘master’”? Duplex Dog thinks a second and then says: “He’s the guy who cleans up my poop.”
Dogs went through a hell of a lot of trouble to evolve from wolves so that they could hang out with us. Far be it from me to kick them out of the cave!
Every so often I notice that this subject comes up. I guess some folks just get bored and need to stir things up a bit. Otherwise why would they bring up something that is so obviously bullshit?
Case in point. We have a cat, Andy, who was a walk-on about eleven years ago. We didn’t go out and buy him, or capture him, he just showed up one day and decided to move in. Since then he has had a life of cattish luxury, getting the best food, beds, and health care. And lots of petting. Never has to do anything that he doesn’t wish to do.
We have a cat door (used to be a dogie door in our pre-cat era). Andy can go out when he wants, and come back if and when he wants. And when he does go out, he never goes much further than the boundaries of our smallish suburban lot.
I really don’t think that that meets any conceivable definition of slavery, although he does have a few assigned duties (see below).
Since I know about the rule regarding cat photos, here is one of Andy performing one of his duties, that of “pillow tester”. Poor fellow sure looks abused.
http://s564.photobucket.com/user/Trygolyte/media/DSC00823.jpg.html
NM
But what about “Some scholars and animal rights organizations have raised concern over pet-keeping with regards to the autonomy and objectification of nonhuman animals.”
I also came across this good point being made:
This is a very emotional argument but not a rational one. It’s not looking at the situation objectively.
Here’s the deal with a dog or a cat, and I have both.
For starters, they have been selectively bred and conditioned over time by humans to adopt traits that are more pleasing to humans. This is a level of which makes the slavery argument more plausible.
It really appeals to emotion to say that they are members of the family, and I agree that I feel that my animals are members of the family, but they’re also slaves, like it or not. They can be both, and many slaves even in some of the more generally oppressive eras, were treated well, enjoyed what they did, and were treated as members of the family as well. None of these gloss over that they were slaves, though. Slavery at its base is really a question of consent and freedom.
Think of it this way:
My animals eat what I allow them to. They have no choice. If they do manage to get what I don’t want them to, I take measures to prevent them from doing so again.
The animal’s healthcare, general health and, frankly, whether they live or die is very much in my hands.
My animals can’t leave the house without my allowing them to - if they would manage to “escape”, I would take measures to return them - and, if a person found them, they would be returned to me and are, generally, considered as being my property in terms of the law.
I’m legally responsible for their actions.
We can argue the “but they don’t do work” approach - but that depends on what you consider about what “work” is. Why do people own pets? Generally to fulfill a psychological need for companionship and emotional stability. They do work, it may not be physical labor, but they (more or less) provide a service. Those that don’t own them for the companionship aspect (and even many of those that do) - own them to fulfill much more standard work-like tasks, seeing-eye dogs, hunting dogs, so on and so forth. The animals that don’t fulfill those typically have even less freedom (fish, many types of birds, etc.). The pets that you don’t generally form psychological bonds with usually become the equivalents of artwork and showpieces, really.
We can hash the argument of whether or not it’s beneficial for the pet - but I think that’s honestly a moot point. I could make a very good argument why enslaving some people could be beneficial for them, but that’s not what’s wrong with slavery.
The one valid point to the argument, as I’ve stated in other threads, is that if we disqualify pets from the possibility of being slaves because they are not capable of giving or removing consent, I can at the very least understand that argument and agree that there is a grey area on that grounds.
But I think that people don’t consider pets as slaves because of the negative connotations that we’ve been conditioned to conjure because of some instances of human slavery without realizing that is an example of slavery, not that it’s specifically what slavery is. But another good movie quote is “Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.” - essentially getting at that, just because say they’re not slaves because you don’t want to think of it that way because you equivocate something with slavery other than what slavery actually is, doesn’t mean they’re not slaves.
What about it? Someone said it. I’ll say “Some scholars and animal rights organizations have not raised concern over pet-keeping with regards to the autonomy and objectification of nonhuman animals.”
And I’d like to find out what animal rights are. Didn’t notice any the last time I read the Constitution. Are these the kind of rights humans have? Can they vote? Can they bear arms? Should we be worrying about armed bears?
Should we send police out in the woods to stop the fox from eating the rabbit? Doesn’t that rabbit have rights?
And the other point?
I think the right are more like not being mistreated or abused. Something like that.
My cat reminds me of that guy in the Pink Panther who was always attacking Closeau. Definitely not a slave.
At least this thread is more interesting than the one about whether music is bad.
Are pets slaves? No. Slaves are human*.
Unless you’re willing to draw a comparison between having a dog as a pet and a black person kidnapped and abused, the discussion ends.
And if you are willing to make that comparison, we don’t have any common ground for discussion.
*There was an SDMB poster who made a comparison between leather-bound books and lampshades made from human skin of Holocaust victims. The proposition that pets can be slaves is only marginally less outrageous.
Dogs wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for humans and they perform a lot of necessary tasks for humans. We are symbiotes. My dogs (and many dogs) work for a living, and they do so very willingly; in fact, they seem to quite love their work. They could leave at any moment but they don’t. Most dogs seem to be more interested in interacting with humans than they are in interacting with other dogs.
Horses can easily jump over or knock down the fences they are routinely kept inside, but they rarely do, and many seem to quite enjoy their “captivity” and the activities they are required to perform to earn their living. Most domestic animals, even the ones we eat, make no effort to “escape” or show any apparent objection to their “enslavement.”
Cats well, the question is whether they are parasites or slave owners.
Keeping wild animals, particularly the more intelligent ones (parrots, chimps, elephants) as “pets” does kind of bother me, but not because they are slaves, but because it is so difficult to provide an appropriate life for them.
Our last guide dog puppy became a breeder, and we got to keep her. She had a litter a year. Did she like this? Who knows, but we have a picture of her with her puppies and her expression is one of “enough already.” One of her puppies became a breeder also and lives nearby - when she visits our dog treats her just like any other dog, so she has no concept of motherhood.
After she retired and she got fixed she was no different. So no, they are not cruel, assuming they are done with minimal pain.
Now I got the choose when I had my vasectomy, but I bet she would have chosen to stop having puppies earlier than she did. And of course for most dogs it reduces the chances that their puppies will be abandoned and starve, get run over, or die in pain.
I think you guys are missing the point of the reply I had in my post, that ultimately the animals are breed with traits we want and can’t surivive on their own. That everything they have is ultimately based on what we decide to give them. They eat what we allow them and go out when we say so. Their far is pretty much in our hands. How is that not slavery?
ONLY humans can be slaves. The word doesn’t apply to non-humans. Any attempt to dilute the word slavery by applying it to animals minimizes the horror of slavery.
That’s how it’s not slavery.
Just a few comments, with my frame of reference being a former dog rescue volunteer and leader:
The idea that I was possibly enslaving my dogs passed through my head early on when I attached a leash to their collars, but it didn’t last long. It’s just not the same as slavery despite my restricting their activity. They are more like dependents. They depend on me for proper nutrition, health care, exercise and affection. It’s a huge responsibility because I possess the bigger picture of everything that affects them, as well as the funding for their care and the final decision of when to end their lives. I think more pet owners could do well by pondering that and taking those responsibilities more seriously (because some of these responsibilities are extremely hard/serious and not at all fun), but we are not enslaving our pets.
Also, the rescue work has really informed my position on this. Street dogs live brutal, sick and miserable, short lives. They succumb to horrible diseases (read up on heartworm and Leishmania for two examples) and horrific parasitic infestations (it’s not unusual to rescue a dog and find it’s ears stuffed full of ticks on the inside and deep down, for example.) Stray cats suffer this also, but tend to be eaten by other/larger animals as well. Domestic animals are simply much better off when cared for by responsible, compassionate humans. So again, that’s care-taking, not slavery.
Well, don’t you do much the same thing? You go to work at particular times because that’s what the boss says. You can’t leave the building whenever you want to without serious consequences. Many people spend hours sitting in tiny cubicles doing boring stuff, and lot of workplaces restrict bathroom access. People have remarkably few choices in life-you have to behave, dress, work, drive, recreate in certain ways or the cops will come and gun you down or lock you up. I guess you could go off and try to live in the woods on your own, but astonishingly few people do. Most pets have enough freedom that they could go off and try to live on their own, but remarkably few do.
Animals can’t give informed consent because they can’t be informed.
No, it means that even if they had complete freedom they’d choose to live with us. Sure their genetics cause this, but ours cause us to want to live in family groups. And cause our children to bond with us. Are they slaves too?
Dogs I have seen sit at the door waiting for their person to come back. You think slaves do this? Dogs coming back home when lost has already been mentioned. I doubt many slaves did this unless they faced the threat of death, which dogs don’t.
My kids pretty much ate what we told them to. When young they did not have input to our menu. My baby grandson eats exactly what is given. Kids who steal cookies and junk food may have steps taken to prevent this in the future. Mine never did.
So was that of my kids. Not they dying part, but there are cruelty to animal laws, and ending the life of an old animal in pain, and who can’t understand why he is in pain, is a good thing to do.
Ditto for kids.
Ditto for young kids.
My pet border collie mix did not do work, but in the field he herded other dogs and people, so I suspect he would have loved to work. Guide dogs work of course, and do incredibly valuable and sometimes life saving work. And you can tell they like it by seeing the change in their behavior when you put their jacket on. Of course they are bred that way, and there is an incredible bond between a blind person and his or her dog.
I just read about a study saying that when you look into the eyes of a dog, endorphins in both of you spike. We’ve been bred to love dogs just like they have been bred to love us.
We have a field across the street where we bring our dog and let her off leash. When younger, she could have easily escaped and gone wherever she wanted. She has no desire to be that far from us. I doubt she has the concept of being punished for running away - we never have or had to. So if that isn’t consent, I don’t know what is. And when she is tired of the place she makes it clear that she wants her leash back on so that she can go home.
They are not slaves because they are not self-aware.
When our guide dog was a breeder she was worth more to society than I was. Walking a dog worth in the high five figures makes you really appreciate keeping her safe. When she retired it was a great relief.
The second article in the OP put forth the idea that pets, * like children, * are brutalized and enslaved.
- Humans enslave and brutalize animals for the same reasons they enslave and brutalize every child, as emotional catharsis, to gain a victim for use as a Poison Container, and to try to extract from others, the things they need but are too broken and destroyed to create and nurture within themselves. *
Which is nuts. Taking care of a child or a pet is not slavery. I’m reading an interesting book written by a neuroscientist called How Dogs Love Us. He became interested in what dogs really feel for humans, and approached the idea from the angle of fMRI to try and capture the canine brain in action. The beginning, where I am in the book currently, deals with the development of the Dog Project and how to train a dog to put up with an MRI machine. And it explores the nature of the dog/human relationship from his side as well.
It’s interesting. I would not call a memoir of a slave owner, though. Your sources may disagree.