Ok, KidChameleon and I have a dispute about whether Phermones have anything to do with Genetics.
Now, I thought that the entire purpose of phermones was to help one find their genetic match. So I was going under the assumption that because the way you look is determined by genetics, that the way your phermones smell is also determined by genetics.
He disputes this.
So would someone who knows more about genetics than either of us please weigh in on this?
Erek
BTW, it’s pheromones. Anyone looking for your thread thru the search function is not going to find it unless they make the same typo…
How could they NOT be determined by genetics? That would be like saying blood isn’t determined by genetics. I suppose it’s possible that there are environmental factors that affect pheromones, but surely there it all starts with the genes.
Pheromones are chemicals released by one individual of a species that cause behavioral and physiological changes in another individual. They are not necessarily limited to mating behavior.
Pheromones in humans are poorly known. One would assume that variation in the pheromones between individuals would probably be genetically based.
No, we don’t.
No, I don’t.
Sheesh. This all started back in a pit thread about racism. mswas claimed that
I agree that pheromones are determined from our genetic code, just as our blood type, number of digits and handedness are. None of these are used to determine race, though some phenotypes are more frequent in different populations.
My disagreement was with mswas’s assertation that somehow the human olfactory system could break down pheromones and determine someone’s ‘race’ from them and that people have historically been seperated by race using pheromones as one of the factors. He provided a citation to back up his claim. However, this site notes that “The scientific verdict is pending” and “there’s absolutely no proof that they can deliver on any kind of erotic promise” and it just an article about human pheromones for sale. It does not say anything about the connection between race and pheromones.
There are studies of pheromones , but they have only shown a link to menstration cycles. My contention is that there is no scientific basis to claim that races can be seperated by pheromones.
You are correct. The second bit you quoted by mswas is complete rubbish.
How is that rubbish? Are you disputing that we determine attraction based on phermones, and that genetics are part of the determining factor in that? That we choose our mate based upon genetic compatibility via phermones? Are you disputing that race is determined by genetics? If two white people have a kid is there a chance that their kid won’t be white? Is that not determined by genetics?
Erek
Cite
Cite
Cite
Yes. Try reading any one of dozens of threads about the relationship between so-called “race” and genetics.
What do you mean by white, exactly?
It’s rubbish because there is no scientific evidence supporting it-- you just made it up.
There is no evidence that we want to choose mates with similar genetics. In fact, if anything the opposite would be true. Also, there is no evidence that humans even have pheromones in the first place.
I have seen some studies that women asked to smell men’s undershirts (yeah, sounds gross, but that’s what they did) and decide which were attractive, generally chose those men whose immune systems were more different than their own.
Oh, and when I ask for a cite, I mean a link to a reputable scientific study, not some bullshit “news” story about aphrodisiacs.
Oops, forgot to finish…
But I don’t know if that was a truly scientific study-- ie, something published and repeated by other researchers.
Don’t have anything to add, just popping in to set up a tent firmly in Colibri’s camp and to lend my support as someone who works in a genetics lab.
If you’ll recall I posted this in GENERAL QUESTIONS. I just thought you might want to know what forum you’re in. You are asking me for cites for my QUESTIONS. If you can’t answer my question either, then maybe your knowledge ain’t superior in this particular case.
Erek
I love how race exists when someone wants to make a point about some kind of political issue, but it doesn’t exist when you start talking about genetics. Either race is an issue or it isn’t. If both your parents have black skin you will have black skin. If both your parents have white skin then you will have white skin. THAT IS GENETIC. There are also other factors that lead to “RACE”, which is term that is loosely based upon certain cultural evolutions that created differentiations in people’s skin, hair, eye color and bone structure.
I never said Genetically similar I said GENETICALLY COMPATIBLE.
Since none of you are capable of answering my question, I’ll see if someone shows up in here who actually knows what they are talking about who can answer them sufficiently. The rest of you seem to want to just sit back pull something out of your pants and wave it at me. If you can answer my inquiries, then your statements are useful, if not, it’s just another circle jerk, and I’m not interested.
Erek
So you have no evidence whatsoever to support any of your assertions? Not one of them? And you talk about us pulling something out of our pants?
At least three of the people who have responded here (me, **Smeghead, ** and John Mace) know quite a bit about genetics. I do not know **Kid Chameleon’s ** background, but he appears to know a good deal more than you do.
We answered your question.
Variance in pheromones is probably based at least in part in genetics, though I am not aware of specific research on that subject in humans.
There is no evidence that such variation, if it exists, is correlated in any way with “race.” There is no reason to suppose that variation in pheromones should have any more correlation with skin color or eye color than blood type does.
You seem to be laboring under a set of misapprehensions. Let me see if I can clearly explain where your premise is incorrect.
To the best of my knowledge, there is absolutely NO evidence that human pheremones (a) play a significant role in human mating behavior, or for that matter (b) exist. Insects and other critters use them to communicate their mating status over long distances, but they lack such human innovations as communication and “Honk if You’re Horny” T-shirts*.
You seem to be saying that individual humans emit a spectrum of pheremones that somehow reflects their genetic makeup. Ignoring point 1 for a moment, let’s look at what pheremones are and how they’re produced. They’re chemicals. Usually fairly simple ones. And like every other chemical produced in the body, they would be produced by enzymes, which in turn would be coded for by genes. Presumably, each pheremone chemical would be created by its own enzyme. The spectrum of pheremones you personally produce would be determined by the specific pheremone-producing genes you were born with. HOWEVER, that’s a very very long way from saying that your pheremones (which, remember, don’t actually exist) provide a snapshot of your genetic makeup. Genes (well, chromosomes) assort independently. That is, unless two genes are very close together on the same chromosome, they’re not connected - a child can get one but not the other. That’s why hair color and eye color combinations can vary among a family, for instance. So having a pheremone would tell you absolutely NOTHING about the person’s genetic makeup except for the fact that he has the gene for that particular pheremone.
I’m not entirely sure how race got into this, but if your assertion is that particular pheremones are associated with certain racial traits like skin color, well, that would require a very large research project to prove. This work has not been done, of course, because of point 1. If you can find any evidence to the contrary from reputable sources** I’ll be happy to look at it.
*Please note: the use of humor in this post in no way invalidates the scientific validity of my points.
**Reputable = peer-reviewed scientific journals or at least articles from respected news media. Not reputable = websites offering to sell you human pheremones that will make cheerleaders horny.
Note to self: Upon winning powerball, fund research in this vitaly important, yet sadly negected, field.
Let’s start at the beginning…
Do human pheromones exist? We don’t know. There is speculation that they exist, but there is no actual evidence that they do.
If human pheromones do exist, then how would they affect mate selection? They certainly would encourage mating only within the species, but since all races of humans are the same species, that doesn’t tell us very much. But if your theory were correct, we’d all be most strongly attracted to our siblings, since they are the people with whom we share the most genetic material. Is there any evidence of this? No, in fact we find the opposite-- prohibitions against incest seems to have a biological as well as cultural component.
Do humans tend to seek out mates with a similar genetic makeup? No evidence for this other than that we might have a cultural (not genetic) preference to people with a simlar culture.
Another important point is that you are not so much asking a question as making an assertion. Sure, your OP here was framed as a question, but it was vague at best and deliberately misleading at worst. It is not the same issue you raised in the pit thread. So, back up your assertion or admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about. There’s nothing wrong with the latter option-- everyone on this board is ignorant of lots of topics. In any event, I can guarantee you that no one is going to be able to come in here and back up your claim with a peer reviewed scientific citation. No one.
You’d think there’d be some venture capital for that one…
In the interest of helping you understand this issue, can you clarify what you mean by this? It seems to be based on a misconception of what “RACE” is. I’m particularly interested in the part to which I added emphasis:
Also, from the OP, can you clarify what a “genetic match” is? Please be as specific as possible:
Fair enough.
The part about siblings does not follow because I said COMPATIBLE not similar. Meaning that on some primal level we pick the mate that we think will help us produce the offspring most likely to survive and carry on our genetic material.
Again, I never used the word similar.
I didn’t make an assertion, I asked a question. People who have answers for me are more than welcome to make them, but I am not going to get sucked into a Great Debate if you don’t mind. If people like Colibri wanted to show their superiority they would do much better to “Show not tell”. I am not going to ‘back up’ my questions. I asked questions.
What I meant about race is just that back before modern transportation certain gene pools were isolated by geographic proximity, and they evolved to adapt to the particular location that they lived in. This created certain traits among those people that we in the modern world affectionately refer to as “race”. So I induced that if our genes give us a certain bone structure type, a certain skin color, a certain consistency in our hair, then maybe that would affect our scent as well, and on an instinctual level we might make mating decisions based upon those factors. I appreciate the help with my genetics education, but I don’t think that what I am implying is all that terribly radical. I am not saying Genetics are the ONLY factor, only that they are one factor amongst many.
Colibri And one last thing, I think it’s pretty ridiculous to expect me to come up with sites while holding back information just so you can pull out your ‘superior knowledge’ when I was asking these questions in a forum called “General Questions”. The only thing you would need to do to prove your superior knowledge is satisfactorily answer my questions. I am capable of learning you know.
Erek