Are Race and Genes unrelated??

As many as is useful to subdivide into for the purpose at hand. sighs

How many shades of grey are there? If you have a particular answer that you want me to give, tell me and I will gladly give it. But until I know what you want, all I can do is answer honestly.

To quote myself: “Genetic differences between races most often are differences in bone structure, height, pigmentation, certain glands (for instance, Japanese people don’t have as many of the kind of sweat gland that makes stinky sweat), blood type, and other things.”

But if you are unable to define even what you yourself mean by the word “white,” your posting in this thread at all would seem to be utterly without value.

You accused me of sidetracking the discussion. It is laughable to characterize my pointing out that you yourself do this frequently is a “personal attack.”

But you are unable to offer anything at all? Nothing whatsoever? We must know what you mean by the word “white” before we can even begin to know what your comments are supposed to mean.

“Commonly understood” by whom?

I know from experience that attempting to educate you on issues of race and genetics is a complete waste of time, so I’m glad we’re in agreement on that at least.

The whole point, of course, is that race cannot be defined precisely. That’s why I wish to know what you think you mean by it. But you don’t seem to know yourself.

Your confusion here, Sage Rat, is that you are mixing up populations and races. You said earlier that there could be either no races, or there could be tens of thousands, depending on how finely you choose to cut it. But the latter case clearly is nonsense, in the way the word “race” is commonly used. Usually there are considered to be three, or four, or six “races,” (as you have previously stated) not thousands. And the latter is clearly not true.

There may be genetic and phenotypic differences between populations, as long as you select populations sufficiently far apart (or whose ancestors were from sufficiently far apart). But since populations are generally continuous with adjacent ones, there are no clear boundaries between them, nor are there clear boundaries in the distribution of genes. Populations do not correspond to races.

Japanese people are not a race, of course, although they could be defined as a population.

This, I think, identifies the core of your misunderstanding of the issue. You’re imagining a genetic basis for race as though it were something on a continuous and consistent spectrum, like different colors of light. But it isn’t.

Yes, we may have a fuzzy boundary between “red” and “orange”, but we can still speak of “red” and “orange” as different colors because we have a scientific basis for classifying them: namely, wavelength of light.

If, somehow, different wavelengths of light from entirely different parts of the spectrum could appear to us as being the same color, then “color” might still be a useful concept for us, but it wouldn’t be related to wavelength in any scientifically meaningful way.

That’s the idea you’re struggling with when it comes to “race”. You assume that “race” must ultimately be based on closeness of genetic relationship, the way that color is ultimately based on wavelength of light. But it isn’t. There are populations of dark-skinned Africans who are more closely related, genetically, to populations of light-skinned Scandinavians than to other populations of dark-skinned Africans, or populations of dark-skinned South Indians.

It’s not just a matter of having fuzzy boundaries between well-defined categories, as with different colors of light. It’s a matter of having people with very different genetic backgrounds sharing the same superficial characteristics. Consequently, you can’t draw reliable conclusions about the closeness of two people’s genetic kinship from just observing their superficial similarity in racial characteristics.

It’s as though light with wavelength 400 nanometers and light with wavelength 600 nanometers both looked purple to us. We simply wouldn’t be able to use apparent color as a reliable guide to position in the electromagnetic spectrum. Similarly, we can’t use apparent racial characteristics as a reliable guide to genetic descent. There are just too many populations from all over the map, geographically and genetically, who are misleadingly similar in phenotype.

**For any situation!

At all!

At any time!

For any purpose.

Of your choosing!

Tell us how many races there are.

Then tell us what those races are.

Then tell us what the obvious significant genetic differences are that you claimed exist between them.**

Like I say, keep weaseling. the longer you do it the more reason you give people to disbelieve you.

I would disagree. “Population” in the vernacular means the number of people in a country. Again in the vernacular, it doesn’t mean “a group of people sharing a related ancestry.” I can guarantee that you can poll 95% of all Americans and they would agree that they would never have heard of the latter definiton.

“Population”, “haplogroup”, or whatever are, I agree, better and more technical terms. But they’re also words that no one knows or uses for that purpose. The only words available to the masses are “ethnicity” and “race.”

I don’t have a misunderstanding of the issue. I’m being forced to apologise for having a common understanding of the word race which relates to a person’s ancestry instead of his skin color. Personally I can’t feel sorry for having a 21st Century understanding of the word. All I can do is explain what I meant so that people can read what I wrote without getting confused.

Would you agree that humanity can be divided into haplogroups? If yes, then you are not disagreeing with me any.

This is just nonsense. We are talking about biology and science here, and it is legitimate to use these terms in their biological sense. **Sage Rat, ** really, give it up. You don’t know what you are talking about. I am really not sympathetic to people attempting to “debate” questions like this from a position of ignorance. It rather defeats the purpose of GQ.

Yes you do have a misunderstanding of the issue, which becomes more and more obvious with every post. Your not being “forced to apologize,” but if you don’t understand the issue (which you don’t) you should just stop posting on it.

I’m not debating. I’m explaning what I meant in post #3 when I used the word “race.” I know better than to use it that way now without providing a footnote, but I can’t go back and change it. If you don’t personally agree that anyone in their right mind could mean it that way, then I have no problem with that. I’m not trying to convince anyone that I’m right, just that’s what I really did mean.

The statement you made in post #3 is flat out wrong no matter how you define race.

That is why you need to keep weaseling away from answering the simple questions:

**For any situation!

At all!

At any time!

For any purpose.

Of your choosing!

Tell us how many races there are.

Then tell us what those races are.

Then tell us what the obvious significant genetic differences are that you claimed exist between them.**

Pedantic note: Sage Rat’s post was #4. Post #3 was Blake’s.

Blake, if you have a different way of viewing race where there’s a concrete number then good for you. Personally, the way I view race is distorted by knowing about haplogroups, populations, loop species, evolution and other such things.

Life evolves. As it does so, various of these life forms tend to clump together creating towns, kingdoms, and whatnot. The odds that an individual will breed with someone else from the same culture, language, and region are higher than that they won’t. And so, the population of this group will generally evolve along with each other, developing certain traits particular to themselves.

As time goes on there might, for instance, be a tendency for this population to migrate East. And while it may seem intuitive that the further away from their origin any new clumps might be that they’ll differ more from people back West, there’s no particuar guarantee of this. It would be entirely thinkable that people at the far Eastern end appear more similar to people at the far Western end than they do to people in the middle even though they were the earliest to split away. The randomness of life just makes things end up that way.

More time passes and there are new calls to migrate. Three general paths come into existence, people from the far Western end go North, the middle go North, and the far East end go North, but each along a separate path that doesn’t touch–there’s just unlivable barrens between them, so the only path for them to breed is to travel back South and loop around to a different Northern path.

Again, due to the randomness of life, any two people at any distant places along these paths might be more similar to one another than they are to people relatively near–due to the randomness of life. But, one can still draw general arrows of migration. And along each path, there will be general clumpage such that people are more likely to breed within the clump than with people of another, even nearby, clump with a different culture. And so the people of any one clump will be more likely to share common features of others of their clump.

So now we might organize all these various clumps of people by three methods. We could say that there was the original migration, which we will call group E, and then there were the three secondary migrations, which from West to East we’ll name N1, N2, and N3. And along each of these is three clumps–kingdoms–for a total of nine, like so:


A3 B3 C3
 |  |  |
A2 B2 C2
 |  |  |
 A--B--C

But of course, the problem comes that if you wanted to reference any particular grouping of people, how do you split them? It might be that in terms of appearance people who live at A3, B2, and C seem to look about the same, as do A2, A, and B, and B3, C3, and C2. This would give you three groupings of people who appear similar: Alphas = {A3, B2, C}, Betas = {A2, A, B}, and Deltas = {B3, C3, C2} Alternately, you could simply say that each clump is its own group and so there are nine different groups. Or lastly you could refer to–as we did before–people of particular chains of migration, giving you E, N1, N2, and N3.

In total we have three ways of classifying our relative groups, one gives us three subgroups, another gives us nine, and the last gives four.

Now, traditionally, the word race was meant to–and most favorably to most people in this thread–refer to the system that goes entirely by appearance. In my example, this would be the Alphas, Betas, and Deltas system. In the real world it’s the white, yellow, black, and red system.

To me, personally, I would view “race” as being an umbrella term for any of these methods of organization. Though quite obviously it is best that you put a footnote down saying which one you mean. Or, indeed, just don’t use the word that way. But still, to me, any system of classifying people in a method like this would be splitting people into races, I would just generally lean more towards the path (haplogroup) and clump (population) methods than to simple appearance. But if you don’t like me viewing it like that then well, so it goes–but getting mad at me for it doesn’t accomplish anything. Still, if you ask me for how I view race all I can answer is that this is how I was brought up to view it, and in that way of viewing it there isn’t an end-all-be-all set of divisions that seem good enough to use for all situations.

ETA: And thank you, Indistinguishable. I’d misrecalled.

Sage Rat: I’m not a professional biologist, but I make a point to be well informed on the subject of genetics and evolution. **Blake **and Colibri, however, are both biologists and experts in the field. You are on the wrong side of this argument.

Yepper, this part is indubitably true, if you allow also for the effects of “outbreeding”—broadening a particular population’s gene pool with occasional matings outside the population.

Nobody is denying at all that isolated populations tend to develop distinctive characteristics, or that the extent of a population’s isolation tends to correlate with its likelihood of developing genetic differences from other populations.

This is where your whole mistaken argument breaks down. You are assuming, incorrectly, that the only or major reason that different populations share certain phenotypic traits is that they belong within the same genetically related “clump”, and that populations with different phenotypic traits belong in different genetic “clumps”.

But in the case of human migration and evolution, many genetically different populations developed similar phenotypic traits because they wound up in similar environments, NOT because they were closely related genetically.

Here’s an oversimplified example on the level of individual differences. Suppose you, your brother, and your cousin all look pretty much alike, with medium-fair skin and brown hair. Of course, genetically you’re more closely related to your brother than to your cousin, but that’s not obvious just from looking at the three of you.

Now suppose that you and your cousin both join the military and get deployed to the Middle East, where you spend a lot of time out in the sun. You both develop dark suntans and your hair gets somewhat sun-bleached. Meanwhile, your brother gets a job in a temperate-zone city renowned for its fogginess and seldom sees the sun at all.

When the three of you get back together again, the average stranger looking at the three of you is likely to assume that you and your cousin are more closely related than you and your brother, because you and your cousin are now more physically similar. But, of course, that isn’t true; you’re still more closely related, genetically, to your brother. It was environmental factors that made you and your cousin look more alike.

That is exactly the situation with many similar-looking populations that are loosely described as being of the same “race”, but which are actually less genetically similar to each other than to certain other populations with different phenotypic traits. The environmentally-caused similarities in superficial appearance are deceiving you into thinking that similarity in appearance reliably correlates with closeness of genetic kinship. But it ain’t necessarily so.

Sage Rat, it might help you to familiarize yourself with the notion of convergent evolution and the discrediting of the idea of paraphyletic taxa. Modern biology, to put it simply and bluntly, considers paraphyly wrong, and therefore the popular concept of race is wrong as far as biology is concerned.

Since “white” people are more closely related to “black” Ghanians than to “black” Australians aborigines, modern biologists (the notable exception of the old James Watson) reject the popular concept of “race.”

Sage Rat, the name of this forum is not IMHO, it is GQ. Nobody asked you about how you personally view race, and we are seriously not interested here in your idiosyncratic personal opinions on it, especially since you have no background in the subject. We are interested in what science has to say about the matter. Unless you have some significant factual information to contribute, you really aren’t serving to answer the OP. Why you feel compelled to go on at such length on this I really don’t know.

After skimming this thread, I really dont think sage rat is weaseling at all. Race is a fuzzy, hard to define, and not very useful biological concept. I’m sure he doesnt disagree with that. But to say there is absolutely no correlation with genetics seems to be a pretty difficult position to defend. Yes, you can find many instances where individuals dont fit nicely into whatever standard racial groups there are, but if nobody could agree on what race individuals were, how would the concept have even evolved?

From what I have read, while MOST human genetic variety exists within the standard races (say, on a census form), there is a small amount of variety (from 6-15% )that IS particular to races. Richard Dawkins wrote a very interesting essay on this in the Ancestor’s tale.

I do not understand why someone would suggest a “black” man would have no advantage over a “white” man in a desert environment. True, one can find some blacks who are lighter than some whites. But take 100 randomly chosen men who have checked off “black” on the census form and 100 randomly chosen “whites” and see which group has more trouble with sunburn. Populations evolved certain characteristics in certain environments for a reason.

Race is an inaccurate, unscientific, and socially problematic concept…but NO genetic correlation? I just dont see that. I’m with sage rat on this.

No, nobody’s trying to claim that physical characteristics don’t have any genetic correlation with populations.

The problem is that each of the few and huge groups we naively call “a race” is composed of large numbers of different populations, some of which are closely related genetically and some of which are not.

“Population” is a fairly well-defined term that does reliably indicate genetic kinship. But the physical characteristics that we associate with any particular “race” appear in a variety of widely different populations, many of which are no more closely related to one another than they are to populations that we assign to a different “race”.

Trying to use race as a genetic category is meaningless because race is not a reliable indicator of genetic descent or genetic kinship. Yes, population is meaningful as a genetic category, but race is not.

I agree, and that is the problem with the idea of race. However, I think it is one thing to say that correlation between race and genetics is often unreliable (for the very reasons you point out) and another to say “race has NOTHING to do with genes” (the OPs question). If there is ANY higher statistical probability of finding any particular allele within one race than another, then how can one say that race has “nothing to do with genetics?” Unreliable and inaccurate, yes, but completely removed? I think the sociology professor in question was overstepping just a bit to emphasize his point.

Because the concept is based on trivial phenotypes (trivial in that many of the phenotypic traits upon which the various races are built have evolved independently in multiple populations, meaning such traits are “easy” to evolve, given human variability).

I do: because neither evolved in a desert environment. The folks who do live in deserts? They tend to be “yellow” or “red” or “brown”…