Is race really just a social construct?

It seems to be the most fashionable approach to race nowadays; to claim that race is not a valid biological concept, but only a social concept. I personally have felt that this attitude about race is more of a result of fear than science; fear specifically of the potential to add fuel to the fires of racial discrimination and hatred. This may be a valid reason for treading lightly around the issue, but after reading Phillipe Rushton’s Race, Evolution, and Behavior I have to wonder if the popular denial of the biological basis for racial differences has any solid arguments to support the position.

So can anyone effectively argue that race is strictly a social construct and that there is no biological basis for the concept of races?

(For anyone who has not read the book, there is a PDF of the abridged version available to read at http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf )

Search on my name and race and genetic for access to emperical evidence.

Phillipe Rushton is a fraud.

You should learn that most of such books are published because they do not have to pass academic peer review. People can claim whatever they want.

One would think that after the human genome has been sequenced, such arguments would finally cease.

Collounsbury: would you be so kind as to provide a specific link, as I don’t really want to wade through 18 separate threads, some of them with scores of responses, to find exactly what emprical evidence you’re referring to…? Also, your assertion that Rushton is a fraud amounts to little more than an ad hominem attack apart from a solid refutation of his ideas, doesn’t it? Again, if such a refutation of his ideas is in a specific thread that you know of, please provide the link. Thanks.

OliverH: I was (and still am) under the impression that claiming that there is a biological basis for race is not the same as claiming that Caucasians and Blacks and Asians are separate species or something along those lines; I’m not sure what kind of point you are trying to make with the reference to sequencing of the human genome. There are obvious and marked differences physically between Blacks, Asians, and Caucasians on the average; why is it such a sin to acknowledge them, and if (note that I am saying if) there are additional differences (such as testosterone levels or brain mass, etc) then would you agree that acknowledging those differences should be OK in the context of scientific study? I perceive that there is an unspoken taboo regarding the acknowledgement of even the possibility of such differences, and it seems to be based almost entirely on the fear of the potential negative social consequences of such an admission. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Do you understand where I’m coming from…? If everyone has already decided that there cannot be any real biological basis for race because racists might use such differences to justify their prejudices and hatred, doesn’t that effectively limit scientific inquiry?

It is perfectly reasonable to note physiological differences between “races”. For example, you don’t have to worry about sycle cell (sp?) anemia unless you come from Africa I believe. However, the problem is that people make these physiological staements about ‘blacks’ or ‘caucasions’ for example. These basic terms for race are completely unhelpful for this sort of work. There are more physiological differences between black people whos ancestors come from different parts of Africa than from some African tribes and some Europeans. You would have to make hundreds if not thousands of classifications of races for any genrealization based upon race, even physical ones, to have any merit. For example there are African tribes where the average height is over 6’. There are also the pygmies…

So you can see, the only categorization you can make would be between specific (and in the cases of some tribes in Africa that are close together but until recently have had very little contact VERY specific) geographic areas. Once you start trying to broaden these classifications to cover country or continent sized areas it all goes to hell. Things are a little bit easier when you say ‘caucasian’ though, due to the great deal of interbreeding that has gone on all over Europe for some time. Even here it doesn’t work particularly well. I will try and find a good site for you.

In summation, worse than racism its bad science.

**

The reason for that is quite probably that you aren’t sure about what ‘race’ means in a biological context. ‘Race’ is a set term describing a relation. Members of a race are more like each other than members of two different races.

**

Of course I agree. The problem is that ‘marked physical differences’ is no basis to speak of ‘race’. Whether two given individuals are more related to each other cannot be determined on the basis of physical markers alone beyond their rooting in the genes of the individuals. It is on the genome level that true relatedness is determined, and it is on the genome level that you find plenty of variance between members of one given ethnic group where, were they a race, you’d find commonality.

It would, if it were the case. If you’d look into a database of biomedical literature, however, you’d find plenty of research on the issue. It is of utmost importance that the basis of the observation that some ethnic groups contract certain diseases or show certain syndromes more frequently than other is known, since many different factors can be responsible: Cultural habits, environment, food or genetic differences.

The claim of a taboo is frequently raised by people who have strong opinions but not data to back it up. They claim a conspiracy of the scientific establishment is suppressing their conclusions. They usually end up publishing books, hoping to be ‘right by public acclamation’.

No I can not, I am not about to hold people’s hands when a search function exists and when I have provided, copiously, in the past, links to and large amounts of direct citations to the primary, peer reviewed literature in human genetics.

If it is “too difficult” to do a bit of reading and searching, I might add the keyword genome should be helpful, I have nothing for you as I am no longer inclined to waste my time on this topic.

No, it does not. Do a fucking search and you will find I provided direct evidence on this very issue. If you can’t trouble yourself, well maybe someone else will hold your hand.

I will note that the poster referring to sickle cell anemia is incorrect, but again this has been treated many times in the past.

I suppose a great deal of my confusion does have to do with my rather blurry ideas about what ‘race’ means. I admit that I use it loosely to refer to groupings based on consistently shared characteristics. Maybe ‘breed’ would be more appropriate terminology (or maybe not). I’m thinking here of how dogs are all Canis familiaris (and maybe even Canis familiaris is a false distinction from wolves, according to some researchers) even if a St. Bernard is so very different from a dachshound; no one hesitates to acknowledge that there are tendencies for some breeds to behave more aggressively or for some breeds to be taller or heavier or faster or have better tracking abilities or distinctive coloration or vocalizations, yet we also acknowledge that they are all still genetically indistinguishable for all intents and purposes from each other. So how do we account for the differences between the breeds if not genetically? This is something I can’t really understand. It certainly isn’t a cultural difference that makes Greyhounds fast and streamlined while Bloodhounds are slow and stocky; it’s got to be genetic, but they’re still ‘dogs’, right? So if there’s no problem with acknowledging that some breeds tend to have certain traits while other breeds do not share those traits, what is the big deal with acknowleging similar trends in human groups?
Regarding African blacks, for example, it was mentioned that there are some groups that are over 6 feet tall on the average, and then of course there are pygmy groups as well; it would appear from these examples alone that one could only speak of ‘average height’ of specific groups of African blacks, not African blacks in general. Would the pygmies be considered a different breed (using the dog analogy) than the group that is over 6 feet tall, or is there another term that I am missing that would be used to differentiate between groups that share common traits such as this?

Please bear with me; I went to Art School, and the only real science I’ve learned since high school has some from my own reading. I was also a die-hard Creationist up until a few years ago, so I had a late start in learning evolution in any depth.

Collounsbury: so your response to me amounts to this: “Look up the answer, I can’t be bothered to share my vast knowledge with you directly.”

Good thing you responded to this thread then; I never would have known how arrogant and essentially unhelpful you are otherwise. I’m sure that we will both be happier if you make good on your promise to abstain from wasting any more time in this thread.

There can be no doubt that in some circumstances involving controversial issues, fear and social forces do indeed severely and even dangerously restrict or otherwise interfere with the performance and/or publication of reliable, honest science. In 1999, the U.S. Congress voted unanimously to condemn responsible scientific research that found that some (certainly not all) victims of what is generally termed child sexual abuse (CSA) recovered quite well and went on to lead happy, healthy, and productive lives. Some of these victims even retained a fondness for their memories of these events. As one would expect, this happy result was inversely correlated to the degree of coercion, manipulation, and violence involved. But the key finding was quite positive, as any honest reader would have to admit: Not all children who experience such unfortunate events are doomed to be psychologically and socially “damaged” for the rest of their lives.

But that positive scientific truth was considered far too dangerous by a great many people (including Congress), and a major effort was undertaken to squelch that research, with even many scientists fearing quite irrationally that if it became widely known, child sexual abuse might somehow become “acceptable” (or some such nonsense). Thus, some scientists themselves lit torches and joined the mob’s efforts to destroy the research, publications, and reputations of those involved with that research.

We’ve seen something quite similar regarding the fields of Sociobiology and Evolutionary Psychology, with such befuddled Marxist luminaries as Stephen J. Gould joining with other dangerous idea-squelchers and anti-scientists to publish an open letter vehemently denouncing those fields, due in large part to their irrational fear that certain highly unpopular views – such as racial differences – might just find some scientific support from evolutionary research.

We see the same kind of smug, moralistic, grandiloquent truth-hiding when it comes to the question of the existence of race. The current Marxist, Gouldian, socially expedient, disingenuous, postmodern-influenced, politically correct view is that race doesn’t exist; that it is just an “illusion”. But the great majority which contends that race doesn’t exist makes that somewhat disingenuous claim based on re-defining the concept of “race” so that it becomes this illusion by mere pronouncement rather than by factual and truly relevant scientific conclusions.

This dubious new definition declares that the term “race” refers essentially to a standard set of genes possessed by all members of a particular population grouping described by a traditional racial name such as “Caucasian” or “Asian” associated with visible physical attributes. The trick is performed by proclaiming the truthful but essentially irrelevant scientific finding that no such standard set of genes reliably exists that would unerringly distinguish an individual of one race from another.

But science can’t deny the everyday, admittedly largely intuitive (probably evolutionarily quasi-preconditioned) observation that a small and varying set of average general physical characteristics tends to vary according to what has been traditionally referred to by the term “race”. If one were to abolish the word “race”, another would be immediately coined in its place to refer to this simple, intuitively obvious phenomenon. Wishing it away by dint of public pronouncement is ultimately quite futile, because race does indeed exist and it is definitely not just a social construction.
The essence of egalitarian social justice does not reliably emerge from the highly dubious assertion that no such thing as race exists, but rather from social values to the effect that it is immoral and unjust to treat the members of one race any differently from any other. It is that noble end which we must join together to guarantee forthrightly and honestly to all, not by the expedient deceit of pseudo-scientifically asserting that race does not exist, but by transcending those very minor but real average differences to do what is morally right.

Well, I think I side with cuckoorex and flight, as far as I correctly understand what they are at. I’m not sure however whether there really is a large difference. I’m not a geneticist either, but since this is GD I guess my opinion is as good as anyone else’s.

No-one in this thread disputes that there are broad physical difference between the various people originating from various continents. No-one disputes that these differences have genetic causes. If that is your definition of race, indeed there is a sound scientific basis for race.

However, this ‘definition’ does have the problem, as flight points out, that within such a ‘race’ a wide variety of appearance and physical characteristics exists. AFAIK it is hard to pinpoint exactly a characteristic that all members of a certain ‘race’ have and only those members. This is shown in particular if we assume people living on border areas. For instance Turkey is (I guess) part of the Caucasian ‘race’ (or is Meditteranean a different one? In that case pick France or Belgium, for a similiar exercise). In the east of Turkey, however, people look physically quite like the standard ‘Asian’. In between there are all sorts of intermediates. So to what race do people in Turkey belong? Arguably one can say that they are not a ‘pure’ race, but than the question becomes (aside from all dubious political connotations of speaking or purity) becomes how we scientifically decide who are the ‘pure’ representatives fo a ‘Caucasian’ race.

Another part of my uneasiness with the term ‘race’ is that some people (not the previous posters) hold a much more specific theory of race, which has particularly in recent years been used for horrible political purposes. In the former Yugoslavia as well as in Armenia and Azerbaidzjan people routinely murdered people who allegedly belonged to a different ‘race’, while us outsiders cannot see clear difference between one group and another. I refuse to believe that genetic difference between Croatians, Bosnians and Serbians are so large that they constitute different races.

Note: I don’t mean to say that anyone here holds the latter kind of opinions on ‘race’, I’m only trying to show why there is a certain unease about the term. The political use of a concept is quite often remote from a proper scientific use. Attacking the political misuse doesn’t mean to disqualify the proper scientific use.

The people who are critical of the OP seem to assume that he wants to deny genetics for PC reasons. I can only see that he asks a honest question in which the boundary issues of ‘race’ and possibly political misuse are questioned. The information produced by the critics is, however, well taken.

Hope I haven’t misrepresented anyone here. If so, that is unintentional as I hope is clear from the tone of this post. Debates such as these have a tendency to rapidly overheat. :slight_smile:

Looking at race from the American perspective may be slightly skewed… people who identify themselves as African Americans are more often than not genetically mixtures of various African and European lineages.
This is not necessarily true of some of the lineages remaining in Africa, such as the Baka or the !Kung, who are still far more distinct genetically from each other than many so-called races that have been distinguished in the past, such as the Arab and Jew, or the Hindu and the European.

Cuckoorex: You’ve been around here a good bit a time according to your registration date - Surely you’ve observed some of the dozens ( I think literally ) of threads on this topic before?

J. Phillipe Rushton is a psychologist whose work on race has been much savaged for cherry-picking and ( purportedly ) even fudging a little data ( I think the dispute was over condom sizes issued by the U.N., which was related to his theses on penis size, which related to his notion that blacks are “r-selected” vs. “K-selected” whites, ecological terms that otherwise, as far as I know, are traditionally only used at the species-level, not for infraspecific categories ). But I don’t want to do a search for specifics just now, either - That’a a lot of posts to be digging through ;).

Fascinating. Is it also Marxian, post-modern, PC, and disingenuous to be of the opinion that infraspecific categories like race and subspecies when applied to non-human organisms generally have minimal evolutionary information and therefore are of very dubious scientific value as formal taxonomic categories? Because I do tend to lean in that direction. Never knew I was a Marxist - Fancy that :).

If you want to define race in humans as being a phenotypically similar group of people that shows only a loose genetic coherence, more power to you. I’d never argue with a definiton like that.

I do tend to think such usage is a bit obfuscatory, though. You’re going to have to work hard to overcome ingrained notions that race refers to a sharp boundary between groups of people and that members of such groups are always each other’s closest living relatives ( generally true on a small population level, not true if we start talking about large categories like "black ").

  • Tamerlane

Tamerlane: I’ve been registered here for a while, and usually lurk, but I have also gone for long stretches without checking out the board. Generally speaking, I have not noticed any of the apparently numerous threads on the subject over the past few years because quite frankly I had no previous interest in the subject. My initial attempts to search for threads dealing with this subject were less than helpful to me, and my curiosity was piqued by Rushton’s book, therefore I opened the thread.

[feeling sorry for the OP getting jumped on by C-bury, back at his old stand, evidently]
[firing up Search engine]

“race rushton”, “Collounsbury”, “Great Debates”, “any date”.

Five threads, including this one. I’m assuming that C-bury’s cites are contained somewhere in there.

The two Biggies.

What is the evidence that races are equal in intelligence?

Races don’t exist

The Also-Rans.

Gould vs. Rushton and questions

Australian Aborigines and memory

You might also find this Pit thread interesting, from February 2001.
Race & Genetics – What the fuck is so hard to grasp?

Actually, I believe the idea that Rushton is a fraud has been seriously called into question in this thread. (I started the thread because I don’t think any of the other race threads contain anything more than empty assertions by various posters). This “Rushton is a fraud” stuff gets repeated like gospel by all sorts of posters, but it would seem that there is less to it than meets the eye. Decide for yourself.

Race is such a tricky concept to get your hans around. For one thing, it’s constantly in a state of flux. It’s just like language. You just can’t draw a border and say “the people on this side are X and the people on the other side are Y”. There are, indeed, many people who don’t fit into neat racial categories. Additionlally, many people put too much emphasis on skin color when they mean race.

Just think about it, though. Set up your own set of racial categories and see how quickly you can find a group of people who don’t fit. It’s not that you need more groups, it’s that there’s essentially an infite degree of blending.

But for people to say there is no genetic basis for what we commonly call race is simply absurd. Why do they think children look like their parents? Is it because they grow up eating similar foods? No, it’s because they have similar genes.

So, just what “is” race? And how do the people who do not come with all your adjectives identify it?

I always defined race as a group of genetically alike peoples who make up a significant population of the earth. Since there do not appear to be any very large groups peoples who are genetically alike making up a significant population of the earth (and since certain groups have been placed in different races at different times in history), that definition seems to be inadequate as a biological construct. Given that the primary determination of who belongs to which race (or even how many races exist) seems driven by the sociological or cultural views of whichever person is making the lists, it would seem that race is more socio-cultural than biological.

should have been

“genetically alike and distinct peoples”

and

should have been

“very large groups of distinct peoples who are genetically alike”

WIth all due respect Cuckoorex this well worn topic has spawned massive and intricate threads in the past, and searching them for a specific cite will normally take some time even with the search engine at your disposal. Time is a precious commodity and this is time you should be spending, not Collounsbury. He’s already answered the question once and if you read the threads in question it is likely 99.99% of your OP will be answered in more detail that you could have imagined possible.
Your questions regarding this topic are not original in any way, shape or form and have been addressed time, and time, and time again with huge swaths of references and exacting detail. Collounsbury handed you the tools to get your answer and pointed you in the right direction and you gave him this spoiled princess response

I can’t blame him for thinking if you’re too indisposed to do a little digging what’s the point of indulging you in this discussion. In the end I don’t think anyone “fears” the notion of population differences. It’s just exhausting and irritating when people throw offered information guidance back in your face.