At symphony concerts, I’ve observed the conductor giving what looks like a downbeat; but before the orchestra begins, a full beat passes in silence. During the piece, I sometimes try to match the music with the conductor’s arms/baton, but again the conductor seems to be a count ahead.
In my own limited musical experiences (school bands, church choirs, etc.), a leader gives a short count and the group starts right on the downbeat. Are symphonies at some higher stage of musical evolution–one in which timekeeping is unnecessary? In which the conductor is giving instructions and the orchestra has one count’s worth of time to absorb those instructions and change the performance accordingly?
Any Dopers versed in symphony practices, please enlighten me.
Uh, no, for the simple reason that this would be insane. You’re noticing one of two things: the preperatory beat (which is usually upward) or the fact that light travels faster than sound.
I have also noticed this, when sitting some distance away from both the conductor and orchestra. A very neat example of the significant difference between the speed of light and the speed of sound.
You probably saw the prep beat
at the same time there are some conductors out there where your better off not looking at what they are doing you may have seen one of those…
cheers
I’ve once experienced it as a deliberate tactic. The conductor of my (amateur) orchestra wanted to try us playing on the beat just after his baton went up. This did give a different ‘feel’ to the music, which suited the piece fine (it was a romantic symphony IIRC). Dunno if this is standard practice with professional orchestras.
The symhony might well of started on the third beat of a bar (assuming 4/4), from my personal experince, the conducter would always count in the extra two beats even if they weren’t marked as rests on the sheet music.
Humans, and not just musicians, can detect events that are non-synchronized to a very tiny degree. I forget just how close they can get to become non-detectable, but it is shorter than .1 second.
So, considering the great speed differences between light and sound, even if both events arrive very close together at your sensory organs, you can tell that they aren’t simulaneous.
There is also a small delay generated by the time it takes for the musicians on stage to begin making a sound with their instrument; their own detection of the conductor’s actions, their own motions on the instruments, and the fact the all instruments have a tiny delay before the sound actually starts.
I have been in very large performing groups, where the stage was spread out, where the same phenomena you observe was a little disconcerting to us, the performers.
And that’s exactly why the conductor is always a little ahead of the beat. If he tried to lock onto the beat as played by the musicians–which an untrained person trying out the baton would intuitively do–the delay caused by natural response times would cause the tempo to get slower and slower. Part of the art of conducting is understanding how to allow for that natural lag time.
Many conductors (paradoxically) don’t give downbeats when their hand move down; they signal the beat with their hands moving up. It can be disconcerting to the casual observer, but to the trained performer who’s used to working with that conductor, it just takes a little adaptation. That may have been what you were seeing.
Way back when I was in my high-school orchestra, the actual beat was when the teacher poked the baton up (where everyone could see it), not down, as everyone would assume. Of course he didn’t explain this to us til I was in the 11th grade, which explains a lot.
I am a conductor, and have conducted bands, orchestras, choirs, musical theater, opera, studio recording, and mixed groups. The actual bottom of the conductor’s baton swing is where everything should come together (the “beat”). Good conductors make this bottom “bounce” sharply, crisply – those that are mushy are often hard to follow.
A conductor signals the beginning of a piece with a slight upstroke, a preparation for the downbeat, somewhat like taking a breath before speaking (this may be what you are referring to, av8rmike.). The performing musicians can anticipate when the actual downbeat will happen, which may negate part of my earlier post about delays.
When conducting larger groups, the conductor’s motions may be much more expansive so everyone can see him, but this doesn’t change the position of the actual beat as indicated by his hands or baton.
This is probably not the case but some crazy orchestra ppl if they don’t like the conductor they have the one, two three method.
1.) If they like the conductor they will be right with them in their beat.
2.) if they think they are okay then the whole orchestra plays a half a beat after the conductor gives the beat
3.) If they really dislike the conductor they stay a whole beat off.
What I found amazing was that the whole orchestra could do it together. I don’t know if this is common or not but there ya go.
Of the interesting range of replies, I suspect the closest to what I have seen (sometimes while sitting close, which makes me doubt the light/sound explanations) is that the orchestra is behaving as av8rmike explains, with the conductor’s hands moving up on the “down” beat.
You’re never supposed to be playing a downbeat when the conductor’s hand is up, but I think it’s a combination of things that makes it appear so sometimes. Some conductors are quirky in that they have a really huge and quick “rebound” off the ictus (lowest part of the beat). When you combine that with the slight delay for the musicians to begin producing the sound, and the difference between the speeds of light and sound, it adds up to a noticable delay. So by the time you hear the sound, it already appears that the conductor has reached the top of her beat. Add the fact that a good conductor is going to realize the natural tendency of the orchestra to slow down, and will anticipate a little bit to keep things moving.
I’m also convinced that some of it is just voodoo. I sit in the brass section at the back of the orchestra, and have spent my entire career getting yelled at for being behind the beat. There’s actually a lot that has to occur before the sound gets out. The light travels back to me, I decide to start the note, I begin blowing, the air travels through my instrument, then the sound travels back to the conductor. So you learn to anticipate. It gets odd sometimes. I have had times where I can hear myself playing ahead of the string section, yet the brass still gets yelled at. Go figure.
And it’s quite possible you saw a downbeat before the orchestra played because they may not have started on the downbeat. For example, Beethoven’s 5th Symphony starts on the second half of the beat, so the silent “prep” beat is actually a downbeat. If you don’t know the piece and are just watching, it would probably look like the orchestra came in late.
you may have seen one of those…