The eyewitness account of Dorian Johnson is evidence. You can choose to disregard it, but it’s still evidence.
Looks like I misremembered, instead Wilson reversed his vehicle and swung it about, perpendicular to the road, and (again, per some accounts) coming within inches of Brown and Johnson. Still a dangerous maneuver. Again, would you be defending it if Brown or Johnson were run over?
Are you conceding that Ferguson PD violated the Constitutional rights of the residents of Ferguson?
Dorian Johnson is the one who claimed Brown was shot in the back? Then yes.
Would you be defending Brown if he reached into the car, tried to grab Wilson’s gun, then charged him? Because that did happen.
Who was convicted of doing so?
Regards,
Shodan
With the difference that one has to live somewhere, but one does not have to drive.
But in general, grown-ups pay their bills.
Or put it this way - 'I would like to live here, because the location is convenient to work. But I can’t afford to pay rent. So I will just move in and ignore you when you ask me for the rent. Is that OK? It’s not? What are you, some kind of racist!"
Well, if you have maturely weighed the alternatives, and decided to drive without insurance/without your seat belt/without a valid driver’s license, then I don’t see how you have much kick coming when you get caught. And then ignore the fines you incur for year after year until you get busted (again) and they toss your deadbeat ass in the pokey.
Actually it is based on several years experience where I too could not afford a car, with all its associated expenses. Somehow or other I managed to graduate from school and hold down a full-time job without a car. It wasn’t very convenient, certainly, but it was far from impossible.
What is the basis for your assumption that black people in Ferguson are less capable than I of obeying the laws?
Regards,
Shodan
So there is evidence, you just find it credible. That’s very different from “no evidence”.
No. I’m not defending Brown’s conduct. I am critical of the idea that Wilson did a particularly good job that day, and more so the idea that the Ferguson PD was anything other than a racket.
No one, so far as I know. Nor do I know if such a thing is possible; are illegal searches crimes in themselves, or just grounds for evidence to be excluded? I think it’s the latter, but I’m not a lawyer.
If my place of work is miles away and I cannot find a closer job and cannot afford to move, then yes, I have to drive.
I’ll just take that as a no to my question. In general, yes, grown-ups pay their bills. Have you seen the shit they are piling on in Ferguson?! To bring this back to the topic, what we are actually talking about is a city where for every household, there were some three warrants, where the average citizen pays $119 out to the court system every year. And of course, there’s the obvious racist element, which has been brought up multiple times.
There’s a substantial difference between taking someone’s livelihood away from them and driving without insurance. Your analogy does not apply in some very meaningful ways.
Good for you. I’m glad you managed. But you know what? Not everyone is you. Not everyone can have the luck you have, or the resources you had, or the opportunities you had. Not everyone is as smart as you. And I somehow doubt that the cops where you lived were as predatory.
You could only be less subtle if you painted a carrot black and tied it to the end of a stick. But that’s not what this conversation is about, thank you very much. These people are in a tough spot, made far tougher by a police department that is trying to wring every penny out of them. They’re stuck making incredibly tough choices, and at the end of the day, some of them end up going to what is essentially a debtor’s prison - jail because they could not afford to pay the fines and fees applied to them. You seem to have absolutely no problem with this.
My place of work was miles away from where I lived, and I did not own or use a car.
You mean the ones who ignored their court dates and their fines? Yes, I saw it.
I don’t know what this means (besides hand-waving) so I will take it that my point stands.
The point is that it did not take all that much. I had no more resources than a bus card, and I managed to show up to work on time, every day. That’s not luck.
Again, you are missing the point. They are in a tough spot because they break the law and ignore their court dates. The police were not able to wring any pennies out of me, because I didn’t drive without insurance or speed or let my license tabs expire.
You seem to be saying that it is impossible to live or work without a car. I am living proof that this is not the case.
Regards,
Shodan
Are you talking about Black Lives Matter protesters or members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Stupid is as stupid does.
I haven’t had a car in years; I’m afraid to drive anymore. I’m not a poor black person on the South though - in my case it’s laughable to even think there is some sort of basis for comparison.
What are you talking about?
Ah, okay. So there was public transportation that you could use to get from point A to point B at a reasonable time without significant delay (or you had time to put up with a significant delay). Not to put too fine a point on it, but saying “I had no more resources than a public transit system that was convenient to me” completely changes your situation. Yeah, I made it to college for three years without a car… I only had the München U-Bahn to rely on. :rolleyes: Doesn’t sound that impressive, does it?
Meanwhile, I don’t know that such a system exists for these people. There is a metro bus line in the St. Louis area; it is not exactly covered in bus stops and I didn’t find information on how often they drive. Various other communities may very well be shit out of luck - luck you apparently had.
Again, complete unwillingness to see this from the victim’s side. At this point, it’s just cruel.
If I drive without insurance or with expired plates, I am not necessarily hurting anyone. If I take to squatting in someone’s abode, there is clear harm here. Your comparison fails.
Different situations require different approaches. I’m doing just fine with no transportation right now. But put me back where I used to live without a car, and I’d be totally fucked. Because where I used to live doesn’t have good public transit, and doesn’t have good roads for biking, and everything is fairly spread out. Now make me work two jobs, on opposite sides of town, and all of a sudden I just can’t do it without a car.
It’s nice that you made it. But not everyone is you. Not everyone is in your situation. And not everyone has your options. And you need to recognize that. Check your privilege. It’s getting in the way of you understanding this issue.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but did the DoJ report detail numerous Fourth and First amendment violations by the Ferguson PD is relation to the Michael Brown case?
If the answer is no, then you have a case of apples and oranges.
And, puh-lese, you don’t have to convince me that there appears to be a pretty easy case of systemic injustice against people of color in Ferguson. But that is not really material for this specific case of Michael Brown. IMHO, choosing Michael Brown as a hill to die on is not a good move. Be crass and call it a crappy marketing move. Regardless, if BLM wants to be a force for a positive change, I don’t think it will be all that challenging to find a clear cut case of police brutality against an obviously innocent person of color. Michael Brown is not a poster boy of an innocent person of color fucked over by the man. YMMV.
Come on, Shodan, don’t pretend that this will push your vote. You’ll just vote for the Republican candidate regardless.
It’s phrases like “Check your privilege” or “Safe space” that makes me actively despise BLM. Why don’t the criminals driving on a suspended license, without insurance, or on expired tags check the traffic code?
yawn
Yeah, yeah - it’s so mean to expect someone to obey the law when it isn’t convenient!
I know - it’s only white privilege that enables me to know how to ride the bus. The spirit of Rosa Parks lives on - except not in Ferguson.
Regards,
Shodan
What, exactly, is your problem with “check your privilege”? It’s an exceedingly useful and applicable shorthand, particularly when someone tries to apply elements in their own life to others in ways that do not apply in order to denigrade them. Which, by the way, is exactly what Shodan did.
Dale, go back and read the thread. Seriously. I’m not going to explain this one again.
Check your privilege sounds like something a pointy head professor would say. I guess it’s taken the place of ’ Racism, sexism, and homophobia.’ Whining professional victims spouting off, " Check your privilege" causes me to immediately tune then out.
I have read all of the thread. Poor people make dumb decisions and it’s easy for those bad decisions to steamroll. Poor people are often poor due to a lack of intelligence. Has nothing to do with race.
Oh, okay. So your problem is that it sounds academic, has to do with the plight of vulnerable minorities, and is overused?
I’m not dalej42, but for me it seems to be shorthand for “I am more of a victim than you, so shut up”.
But not to worry - I checked
[ul][li]Glasses[/li][li]Wallet[/li][li]Keys[/li][li]Zipper[/li][li]Privilege[/ul][/li]So we’re fine.
Regards,
Shodan
As I said above, these individual cases are just rallying points, to make people aware of larger, institutional problems. Those larger problems are what matter. Trying to make it all about one case is a tactic of people who are trying to preserve the status quo.
“The people of Ferguson are suffering horrible, systemic injustice, based on racism!”
“How so?”
“This innocent brother - he was walking along, minding his own bidness, and the cops shot him in the back!! In cold blood!”
“Err - he was walking down the middle of the street, ten minutes off a robbery, with the stolen goods in his hand, and he attacked a cop and tried to grab his gun.”
“Well, still - the people of Ferguson are suffering from systemic racism!”
“What is it now?”
“They make us pay our traffic tickets!”
Regards,
Shodan