Are the Japanese to be trusted?

Great Debates
1

A few days ago, I made an argument that “Christians” were not the only “honest” people on earth and I used the Japanese as an example. I made the point that if you lost your wallet in the street, you stood a very good chance of recovering it with money intact. I also gave an example about leaving change in a coin machine and someone making an effort to chase you down to reunite you with your forgotten coin.
The reaction I got from Quicksilver was that “I shouldn’t delude myself”. Basically, “remember the war”.
Well, I confess I accept this kind of talk from people who experienced the War. When you have gone through hell, it’s difficult to forgive the people who put you through it. However, this was over 50 years ago. Yet, people like Quicksilver, who did not indicate s/he experienced the war, still seems to have some distrust of them. Why?
From the brief interaction I had with Quicksilver, I realized s/he has never visited Japan. So how is s/he to judge?

Personally, I have lived in Japan many years. But, I have also lived in two (pre WW2) former Japanese territories (Korea & Taiwan) as well as one territory occupied during WW2 (Hong Kong). In addition, I have traveled all over Asia for many years. In my experience, I have found that the Koreans still hold the deepest grudge against the Japanese. Even to such an extent that some Koreans still consider Japan a threat. It is strange to hear the South Koreans talk about the Japanese threat when clearly their North Korean brothers are a much more realistic threat. The Chinese still carry some grudge, but it is minimal and tends to be limited to the people who experienced the war. Of course, the Chinese kept on fighting in a civil war so perhaps, their memory is not as strong.
The most forgiving Asians I’ve encountered are the Filipino. They seem to have no bad feelings at all against the Japanese. There are exceptions for sure, but it tends to be limited to the people old enough to have experienced the war.

Now let’s turn to Japan. As I mentioned previously, I have lived here on and off for many years. In my experience, I find the Japanese today the most pacifistic, the least violent, and not to mention the least religious. Now before you jump on me let me just point out that I have lived in seven different countries on three different continents. I have had the opportunity to truly compare.

Now, I want to point out that I am not blindly pro-Japanese. I have my pet peeves. The Japanese education system is on the top of the list and I have brought this up many times when with Japanese (they tend to agree). I have also often discussed religion with the Japanese. I have found that close to two out of three are atheists. Why? Prior to WW2, Shinto was the main religion. For those unaware what Shinto is, it is unique to Japan and basically elevates the emperor to God status. This is how the Japanese population was controlled and this was why the Japanese willingly gave their lives for their emperor. After the destruction and ruin it brought Japan, Shinto was practically abandoned. Therefor the large number of atheists today. Unfortunately, there are people who need religion, and so the religious vacuum has opened the doors for strange cults (such as the Om shin rikyo). But this is still only a very minimal proportion. The majority of those who required some form of religion turned to Buddhism.

Here is my point, the Japanese today are very different from the Japanese of WW2. This is something I have determined from many years of living here. Am I being deluded? Will the Japanese Empire rise again? Is Quicksilver right? Should I be hating and mistrusting these people for the sins of their fathers

2

Well, I guess you should trust the Japanese no more than you should trust any other people that has ever gone to war for property or pride. I think there are few nations that don’t make that list. All humans are evil and untrustworthy – except me, of course.

3

I believe quicksilver’s point was not that the japanese are an evil yellow race that cannot be trusted. He was saying more along the lines that Japanese today don’t own up to things that were done. now, whether that is their responsibility is to do so (them being a completely separate generation and all) was not his point. It was just that they may be honest in some respects, but not in all.

It didn’t seem to me that his point was that they are bad bad people. He was simply responding to your post that they were good people. Now sure, that’s jerky devil’s advocation, but he did make a good point. And I would agree w/ Typm that the most sensible viewpoint is that they are no more or less trustworthy than others.

4

I’d agree with Tymp as well, with slight leanings towards QuickSilver.

Mainly, I worry that the Japanese are not honest with themselves regarding their role and actions in WW2, and thus have a better chance of repeating history than, say, Germany. The Japanese tendency to consider themselves the martyrs of WW2 and see the U.S. as the true, nasty aggressor certainly doesn’t make me feel comftorable with the idea of them having military strength.

So to sum up:
Japanese people- fine and dandy, or at least no worse than any other people.

Japanese government- watch like a hawk, lest they decide to start colonizing smaller countries again.

5

You can’t infer a relationship between personal behavior of one person or a few people and the public behavior of a government.

Not many of us in the US would drop an atomic bomb on a civilian population regardless of any benefits. Nevertheless, most in the US supported that decision.

And Harry Truman probably would have given you your wallet back with the money it.

On the other hand, my coworkers returned my wallet (which had fallen out of my pants in the STAFF bathroom) with the money removed.

6

Given the current geopolitical situation, the likelihood of any major democracy invading other countries is very small, despite weaseling about war records.

7

But is this dishonesty or simple ignorance?

I took a Chinese cinema and drama class that many of the Japanese exchange students at my school also enrolled in. One of the films we watched in class, “Red Sorghum”, contains some graphic scenes of Japanese brutality against the Chinese. The Japanese students in my class were very upset by this, and not because they didn’t believe it. One of them told me that she had been dimly aware that the Japanese invasion of China was not pleasant, but that she had no idea how terrible it had been. The subject had been glossed over or ignored entirely in her history classes, and although her grandfather had served in that campaign he did not talk about it much. She was very ashamed to learn about the way her countrymen had behaved.

With the older generation it may be a matter of denial and dishonesty, but I think that most younger Japanese are genuinely ignorant of the darker side of their nation’s history and don’t “own up to it” because they don’t know that there’s anything to own up to.

8

The Japanese don’t bear shame very well. Do you think that those who learn of their past today are going to tell their fellow countryfolk, or are they going to try to forget that they learned it?

9

Nice Guy, I am surprised that you describe the Japanese as pacifistic. Historically (last 1500 years), they have been THE most ass-kicking group (in both intramural and league play) of people on the planet, even more so than the Western Europeans. I say that with a great deal of respect and admiration. Why are they now pacifistic?

I do have one anti-Japanese bias. I was in a Japanese restaurant last week and they were playing the worst banjo music I have ever heard.

10

My only stereotpye of japanese is that they will all become cyborgs with little robotic dogs(Sony anyone?:))

11

Hi Jack, are you Caucasian? The reason I ask is that the Japanese generally tend to act favorably to whites.

I am a Korean American. I can say that most of my encounters with the Japanese have been unfavorable, and even more so when they learn of my ethnicity. In most of my encounters, they will not talk much to me, nor smile at me, nor give me any sort of common courtesy.

Also, my brother-in-law, who is Korean but grew up in Japan, was basically treated like a pariah there. They couldn’t tell whether he was Japanese or not, but once they found out, bang! instant pariah.

I believe that the Japanese, in general, are very prejudice towards other Asians.

Any thoughts?

12

The Aibo, right?

mipsman, that wasn’t a banjo, that was a samisen. Similar, but different.

Beeruser, the Japan-born Japanese would probably look down on me, too. Why? Cuz although I’m Japanese, I wasn’t born in Japan. However, it doesn’t bother me at all. Their loss.

13

I’m afraid that is true. The Japanese want to think they are a Western country and a step ahead of the rest of Asia. Even the word “Asia” is often used to mean “rest of Asia” - one of my Japanese friends actually told me he’s never been to Asia.

By the way, I think the Japanese government does have tighter control over its population than most other Western countries. Obvious example is education - the government has strict guidlines for textbooks, and schools get free copies of these government-approved textbooks. Publishers can’t include any topics which are not in the guidelines - such as detailed depiction of the Japanese invasion of China, I presume.

14

Thank you all for the posts.

I think every one who have answered have some very valid points. Beeruser asked me if I was Caucasian. Yes I am. But I have lived on and off for almost 12 years in Japan, and I am well aware of the Japanese attitudes towards “other” Asians. As a Caucasian, I have encountered many Japanese who politely tolerate me, although it is so obviously apparent that they do consider me inferior in some way.
I confess that one of the most irritating situations are the encounters with Japanese who think I do not understand Japanese culture because I am not Japanese. After 12 years I’m quite sure I must have learned a thing or two! Invariably, this attitude stems from old school Japanese. Things are changing. As I mentioned above, I lived on and off in Japan for 12 years. The gaps between each move to Japan lasted several years. The changes are noticeable. For one, the older Japanese do not understand what is wrong with the younger generation, (sound familiar?) The young are more exposed to foreign culture and new technologies. People travel abroad a lot more to study. Basically, there is a huge generation gap growing in Japan. Yes, the school textbooks are still regulated by the Government to censor the truth about the war (another pet peeve of mine), but almost all Japanese kids know what actually happened because they have seen it on TV or learned from the net and, something which started about ten years ago, teachers supplement the official text books with factual sources of information. (Unofficially of course). The lame old school dogma is slowly but surely disappearing because people see it for what it is. Complete BS.
Beeruser also mentioned Japanese Koreans. These are the people who were forced to Japan as slave laborers. Several generations later, they were still “Koreans” and had to obtain Korean passports. This despite the fact that they were born in Japan and did not speak a word of Korean or never stepped foot in Korea. This too has changed. In the late 90’s (sorry can’t remember the exact date), Japanese Koreans and Japanese Chinese were given Japanese citizenship at last.
So there is change and it appears to be moving towards good, albeit slowly. Mind you, I have only ever lived in Tokyo and like all metropolitan cities, it is where the changes start and cultures evolve.

15

Woah there Jack!

You got all that from my prior posts did you?!

Well, I’m sorry you misunderstood me. I did not wish to ellaborate deeply on my comments in that prior post because I did not want to hi-jack a thread that had nothing to do with Japanese culture in its OP or later discourse. It would have been considered very bad manners. I’m sure we can agree about that.

Now then, my feelings about Japan and the the Japanese people, as already mentioned by others in this thread, are in no way derrogatory or malicious. I don’t know where you got that idea in the first place. The fact that Japanese established ruling class culture (I don’t mean the young adults that are completely enamoured with Western culture)is deeply steeped in denial about recent wrongs commited is indisputable. Does that make them worse than any other nation in the world with an equally questionable past? Not in the least. Every nation has commited acts they are not proud of. Few have institutionalized denial to such a high degree as Japan has. But then Japan has an extreme aptitude for perfecting things. Look at the auto and electronic industies. Japanese are tireless perfectionists. The entire culture is steeped in the tradition of attaining perfection. From the fearsom samurai warriors of days past to the idealic postage sized gardens that are an oasis in an otherwise hectic modern day Japan. I, for one, respect that kind of singularity of mind and purpose.

As for whether I have any pesonal ax to grind with the Japanese. Not at all. I have a Dutch relative (related by my uncle’s marriage) who spent time in a Japanese concentration camp when he was a child. I have heard him recount some of his experiences and I can tell you they were not pleasant. Alas, I have (had?) a grandfather (my father’s dad) whom I’ve never met. He was executed by the Nazis in Babiy Yar just outside Kiev. My father was just 3 years old when he lost his dad. My grandmother (my mom’s mom) went out one day to look for milk and came home to an empty house. Her entire family - mom,dad, 8 brothers and sisters were gathered up by the Nazis and sent to a concentration camp never to be seen again. She escaped only through the kindness of her neighbours who hid her. Seems I’ve got more cause to despise Germans than I have to dislike the Japanese. But I don’t. Naturally I detest fascism but I don’t paint all modern Germans as evil any more than I consider Japanese people to be evil.

Now, as I recall, you mentioned that Japanese were somehow more honorable than modern day Christians. You’ve confused me with that comparisson. As I understand it, being Japanese is a nationality while being Christian is a religious affiliation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are quite a few Japanese who also happen to be Christian. Forgive me but I simply don’t see what you were attempting to prove with your analogy. Now if you would have said that Jews or Muslems were more honest than Christians, then we would have something to debate about… then again, I’m not certain it would have been a fruitful debate at that.

So once again, and for the record, I bear no animosity towards the Japanese people. I simply pointed out the obvious fault in your reasoning as far as your attempt to morally elevate the Japanese culture above modern day Christianity. We’ve all got our crosses to bare (pun intended) and we all attempt to do it in ways that are consistant with our cultures and upbringing.

As to your OP, as much (or little) caution is warranted in making economic and diplomatic ties with Japan as with any other country in the world. Agreements are only as good as the people who honour them and no nation has the exclusive rights on honesty or morality.

16

While the point that Christian vs. Japanese is not an analogous comparison, I should mention that there are virtually no Christians in Japan, maybe 1% of the population.

Beeruser, annyong haseyo! I lived in Seoul for six years and I am well aware of the antipathy that exists between Koreans and Japanese. The Japanese are extremely prejudiced towards other Asians, but so are the Koreans. They treat their guest workers from the Philippines, Thailand, and Bangladesh abominably. An Asian visitor from one of the poorer countries can always count on getting a megahassle from Immigration at Kimpo. Koreans were victimized by the Japanese from 1910 to 1845, but that doesn’t make them virtuous. Still, daehan minguk manse!

17

This may sound stupid but…
Is it true that there is a very high suicide rate among Japanese students?

18

It’s high, yes, but considering the exorbitant amount of pressure students feel to succeed (shit, there’s competition to get into kindergarten, for godsakes), it’s amazing it’s not higher.

19

Pardon my French. :o

20

Germany has the same problem, according to my high school german teacher. But to a lesser degree.

But once you finally get into college, you can coast almost indefinatly. Of course, you can do that in the US, too. I’m living proof.

Anyway, while few japanese are actually christians, christian images show up an awful lot in japanese entertainment, and many non-christan japanese have christian-style weddings, so many people assume it’s more common than it is.

–
“I can’t help noticing that many of these suggestions are for Japan.”