I bring this up since Hamas destroyed an Israeli tank this weekend, which I think brings the total to about 3 tanks in 18 years. It’s unusual to see them hitting a ‘legitimate’ military targat.
This is really such a lopsided fight that it reminds me of the Indians vs the Cavalry. They’ve been losing ground for 50+ years now.
‘Exterminating’ the American Indians took about a century, if you pick 1800-1900 more or less arbitrarily.
So, are the Palestinians on track with the North American Indians, South American Indians, Armenians, Zulu’s, others?
Please, don’t turn this into a ‘blowing up babies is wrong’ thread.
However there does seem to be a systematic effort to destroy whatever is left of their economy and civic life. I think there have already been been about 200,000 Palestinians who have left for Jordan. I think it’s reasonable to suspect that Sharon hopes that making life in the occupied territories intensely difficult will make enough Palestinians leave so that it becomes easier for Israel to build more settlements and ultimately annex large parts of the West Bank. In other words a kind of slow-motion ethnic cleansing.
No to extermination, yes to what CyberPundit wrote. That’s not to say the Palestinians wouldn’t do the same if they had the military might and international backing/turning a blind-eye situation. Doesn’t make it any less reprehensible for Israel to be doing it though.
In 1946 there were 1.3 million Palestinians living in what was then known as Palestine (Israel, Gaza and the West Bank). Today there are 3.2 million living in Gaza and the West Bank and 1.1 million living in Israel. This totals 4.3 million Palestinians or an increase of 323%. And I’m ignoring the Palestinians who live in Jordan and other parts of the world.
From 1940 to 1999 the entire world increased from 2.3 billion to 6 billion for an increase of 261%.
From 1940 to 2000 the US increased from 132 million to 280 million for an increase of 214%.
Looks to me like the Palestinians are doing just fine population-wise.
The Palestinians are being expropriated, driven out of the occupied territories. This is accomplished by making their lives so miserable that they will leave (assuming they have somewhere to go).
Israel wants the West Bank, if not Gaza, for political (Biblical) reasons and also to claim its resources, especially water. But demographics threaten to undermine the jewish character of the Jewish state, so Israel must “transfer” a significant portion of the arab population or abandon its claim to be a “democracy.”
You would think, if Israel wants to maintain a significant Jewish majority in Israel, it would help Palestine build its infrastructure, and get rid of the illegal settlements, to encourage Arab Israelis to move to Palestine.
True; but it would also help if Israelis could believe that the Palestinians would accept a Jewish state besides them, and not just think of an independant nation of their own as “phase one”. It would also help if Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Iran agreed.
The Palestinians are being expropriated, driven out of the occupied territories. This is accomplished by making their lives so miserable that they will leave (assuming they have somewhere to go).
Not so. State sponsors of terrorism, such as Iran and Iraq, use the hapless Palestinians as a tool in their plight to destroy Israel. They support groups such as Hamas and other who hide among the Palestinian people to squelch any agreements made between the Palestinians and Israel.
Israel has made offers of land for peace and have been and still are willing to do so. However other elements in the Middle East want the total destruction of Israel and the Palestinians is their hammer. These elements are the cause of the Palestinian plight. Any view of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians that do not take this into account and ignore the continuous terrorist acts emanating from the Palestinians is totally lacking.
I wish I could agree, but……….in 1949 Jordan took possession of the West Bank and maintained possession until 1967;
1948……………Palestinian West Bank pop. = 570,000 (Jordan captures the west bank)
1967……………Palestinian West Bank pop. = 604,000 (Israel captures west bank)
1997……………Palestinian West Bank pop. = 1.6 million
So during 20 years of Jordanian rule the Palestinian population of the West Bank increased to 106% which is an increase of 0.3% per year.
During 30 years of Israeli rule the Palestinian population of the West Bank increased to 267% which is an increase of 5.5% per year.
One can certainly argue that the West Bank Palestinians are getting a raw deal from Israel in many ways, but any suggestion that Israel is guilty of some sort of “Ethnic Cleansing” just isn’t supported by the figures. Unless something has happened in the few years that I’m unaware of.
And they well might, if they had assurances that the new Palastinian state would not try and destroy Israel.
If the Palastinians and surrounding Arab states would renounce violence and pledge to allow Israel to exist, there would be overwhelming pressure on Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders. The US would be glad to pitch in several billion dollars a year in aid to build up infrastructure in Palastine.
“but any suggestion that Israel is guilty of some sort of “Ethnic Cleansing” just isn’t supported by the figures”
I used the term “slow-motion ethnic cleansing” and I was referring primarily to the last couple of years. Like I said 200,000 Palestinians have already left for Jordan. I think the idea is to make the conditions so tough in the West Bank that more and more Palestinians leave making the Israeli occupation easier.
“If the Palastinians and surrounding Arab states would renounce violence and pledge to allow Israel to exist, there would be overwhelming pressure on Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders.”
I don’t think you know very much about Israeli politics and its obsession with Jerusalem as the “eternal and undivided capital” of Israel. Israeli public opinion is still opposed to a withdrawl from East Jerusalem. And note that for most of the Oslo peace process Israel continued to build settlements in the West Bank. Finally the Saudi peace plan was along the lines of what you propose but Sharon has basically rejected it out of hand.
Nice theory, istara. There is one problem with it though. Or I suppose you don’t care that the terrorist groups want Israel itself, and the Jews living there, just gone.
Zigaretten, Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing (forcibly removing one particular ethnic group) in 1948 and 1967 (and many other times on a smaller scale), but it is not guilty of extermination (killing members of one particular ethnic group with the aim to destroy it).
The idea that Israel has offered land for peace is laughable as the land it offered it has no right to anyway and it still helped itself to a sizeable portion of the West Bank. This was reneging on the Oslo I agreement between Arafat and Rabin where the entire WB, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem was offered.
Monty, there are Jewish terrorist groups operating in the WB that you can say excatly the same things about with respect to the Palestinians.
Cite? I’m not really interested in blowing up another big Israeli-Palestinian debate re:Israel’s right (or lack thereof) to any portion of the territories), but I’ve got say, I’ve never seen that Rabin made any concrete offers, much less a sweeping one like that. My understanding of Oslo I was merely limited autonomy during a period of trust-building, to be followed five years later by final status talks on the other stuff…but in now way was all that stuff actually offered out-right, up front.
cmkeller, yes you are right it defintely wasn’t Oslo I. I’ve tried to find the orginal article which stated that Rabin peromised Arafat East Jerusalem, but I can’t so I may of been mistaken.
The fact that Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt for peace shows they are not interested in land for the sake of resources or ethnic cleansing. They are interested in security. Egypt agreed not to attack, they got their land back.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00ie0 Egypt-Israel undertake not to resort to the threat or the use of force to settle disputes. Any disputes shall be settled by peaceful means in accordance with the provisions of Article 33 of the U.N. Charter.
True- Isreal has made it clear that no part of Jerusalem will be turned over to the PLO. Some things were said that appeared that they would accept some sort of “free city” under UN control for some portion. However- at Camp David, pre-Sharon, they pretty well offered the PLO a “Palestine” with everything BUT Jerusalem- and indicated that some discussions abot that could be continued. But the PLO is a terrorist organization, founded upon hatred & terrorism. These guys simply can NOT accept ANY offer from Isreal. Any olive branch, except a complete destruction of Isreal with be spurned. They are TERRORISTS, understand? They don’t know what do to with peace, and most of them will be powerless has beens once their is peace. As long as they can keep “bombing schoolbuses” they are popular heroes & leaders. But these kinda dudes are not suited to running a nation, it is clear that the only thing keeping even a semblance of a “palestine” is the hatred of Isreal, and the lionization of terrorist thugs. Once they have only themself to blame for the poor habitat they keep their people in, there will be changes.
Note- there is no “palestine”. There wasn’t really one before Isreal, either. Thus, really, there are no “palestinians”. They are not a separate political or ethnic enity from their neighboring arab brothers. True, there is a nascent “palestinian state”, a semi-autonomous area run by the PLO, and to say otherwise is also playing word games.
That being said- sure, there are several historical acts where Isreal has had the blood of innocents on it’s hands, also. They are hardly blameless.