Are the physical possibilities the same as the logical possibilities after all?

I ask this question from a position of profound ignorance of physics.

I would have answered the question in the title with a reflexive “of course not” until just a few minutes ago when something occured to me.

As far as I know, it’s entirely possible that it was physically possible for all the constants of nature could have turned out to be different. This, in turn, would have made for worlds in which the laws of physics would have appeared quite different to creatures inhabiting those worlds than ours appear to us, up until those creatures had succeeded in completing a full and correct theory of everything.

So what constraints are there on these basic constants? Are there any but mathematical constraints? If not, isn’t this tantamount to saying there are none but logical constraints? If that’s so, then, doesn’t this imply that the physical possibilities are exactly the same as the logical possibilities?

Another way to put it: If a multiverse theory turns out to be correct in physics–if for each possible waveform of the universe there is in fact a universe corresponding to that waveform–then are there any constraints on waveforms other than mathematical constraints, and if not, then doesn’t wouldn’t that imply that the physical and logical possibilities are identical?

And then even if multiverse theories turn out to be wrong, wouldn’t the space of possibilities be the same as the ones defined by the set of multiverses, meaning the point still holds?

(I just know there are lots of people just absolutely wincing at my ignorance here… go ahead and fight it! (Just remember fighting ignorance is not the same as fighting the ignorant. And this is GQ not GD.))

I’m having trouble parsing your post (paragraphs 4, 5, and 6, in particular). Wanna give it another shot?

In the meantime, keep in mind that no one can answer how things “truly” are (*). We only have our current predictive frameworks. So, as far as we know, the universe could have picked h-bar to be 10% higher, but that doesn’t mean the universe actually could have.

With that in mind: the physical constants that feed our existing predictive frameworks are, for the most part, free parameters in those frameworks, with the occasional mathematical constraint or parameter relationship showing up.
(*) is this what you mean by “physical possibilities”?

There may be a few terms that need refinement in what you said. Specifically, “all constants of nature” : There are a certain number of fundamental constants that don’t change with whatever your units are. But those don’t include things like the Planck constant or Newton’s Gravitational constant or the speed of light c. One example is the fine structure constant. That may well be what you want to discuss varying. Although there are fixed relations between some of the other “derived” constants.

It could be you’re postulating a universe in which the laws of physics are simply “different”, leading to different values for the defined constants. The difficulty there is that the development of Physics tends to lead to simplified, unified, interrelated laws instead of apparently arbitrary ones determined empirically. It’s one reason people search for relations between the known “fundamental constants”.

As an example, suppose you’re living in a pre-Newtonian world. Consider Kepler’s laws. You postulate, “Is it possible for there to be a universe in which the planet’s orbits really are circular instead of elliptical?” Maybe. But in that universe, we find that there is no unifying law of gravity. It becomes nearly impossible to truly consider all the implications of changing something, especially when we don’t know for sure what the hidden relation between some values are.

Is that a big problem? If you think that the law of gravity “ought to be” a fundamental part of physics, then you can’t consider a universe without it. If not, where exactly do you draw the line? Our empirical knowledge and scientific theories are certainly informed by logic, but it’s debatable whether we can really speak of this as “physically real”, or simply what we describe as real. Altering the values might not produce a model we can speak of intelligibly.

One other philosophical problem with changing those values is that most of the time, you don’t end up with a stable universe with anything interesting going on as we know it. Is that logically valid? After all, an observable universe might only be said to make sense if something can actually experience it. Or you could go further and say it’s only valid if a conscious entity exists.

Perhaps it’s illuminating to turn the reasoning around: What if physical and logical possibility do not coincide? Then, it would seem, we would have logical possibilities that are not physical (owing to the logical possibilities superseding the physical ones). But what then chooses which possibility to realize physically? Is there some sort of selection principle? Of what sort, of what status would this be? If it was dictated by logic, then the laws of logic would uniquely determine the laws of physics. But, if it was a physical law (however that might be possible), then, although the laws of logic underdetermine the laws of physics by themselves, those possible physical laws somehow ‘determine themselves’, in which case, again, the laws of logic suffice to set the laws of physics.

The other possibility (barring supernatural intervention, about which to try to reason would be useless) would be that there is an element of fundamental randomness in what physics is selected from logic. But then, one is faced with some difficulty: what, among all the possible physics, sets the ‘real’ one apart from the rest? What breathes fire into the equations? This posits a curious élan vital that a certain set of physical laws needs to possess (or be possessed by?) in order to be ‘actual’, rather than merely ‘possible’. This isn’t an attractive position, for this animating force can neither be physical nor logical, as in both cases, physics would follow uniquely from logic, and the randomness posited would merely be apparent.

Another way to look at this is that there is, in fact, little difference between the merely logically possible, and the physically actual: Let’s say logic allows certain mathematical structures – those which are consistent, to impose some minimal criterion. What would the difference ‘from the inside’ be for a structure that is physically real, that contains physical possibilities, as opposed to one that is merely a logical possibility, one that ‘might have been’ physical? Well, in both cases, we certainly can do the same things we do in the ‘real world’ in order to abstract predictions from the underlying physical laws: where, in the real world, we might get a prediction for the decay of a free neutron into a proton, an electron, and an electron-antineutrino, in the merely possible world, we could do similar things to arrive at an x-particle decaying into y and z-particles. We could study their interactions, how they, perhaps, bind together, form new structures of increasing complexity with emergent properties, and in the real world, this would eventually lead us to ourselves, to our interactions with the environment, and to the observations we make about it.

But the same thing is, in principle, possible in the fictional, logically possible world (although it’s possible that no sufficient complexity can be achieved in whatever structures we’re studying). There, too, we would arrive at some sort of (fictional) ‘beings’ that interacted with their (fictional) environments, and that can make (fictional) observations, and, if you believe that consciousness is nothing more than a suitably complicated computer program, i.e. a mathematical structure, they might be just as conscious of these things as we are – fictionally, of course. But what’s the difference between fictional and real consciousness? Well, to them, there can’t be any – just as in the real world we might arrive at some mathematical expression describing our being conscious of, say, a neutron decaying, in our fictional world, we arrive at a mathematical expression of our fictional beings being conscious of an x-particle decaying, and there’d be no way of deciding, from these expressions alone, which one applies to the real, and which to the fictional world. The subjective perception of the beings in the fictional world does not differ from our own subjective perception – like wrestling, it’s real to them!

This is more or less what Max Tegmark calls ‘self-aware substructures’ in his mathematical universe hypothesis, which is one framework in which indeed logical and physical possibilities coincide.

So the conclusion it seems this is meandering towards is that either the logically and physically possible are equivalent, or one needs a selection principle, something to breathe fire into the equations, some vital spirit that is of neither kind to distinguish one from the other; this, to me, however, is just the same as an appeal to the supernatural, which is, as far as the quest of finding things out is concerned, utterly devoid of content.

You’re not making any sense.

Logic only determines what is possible given a set of premises. For the possibilities to be physically possible, the premises must also coincide with physical possibility.

But I think what you are really asking is, is our universe the only possible one, or are multiple physical laws theoretically possible, and ours is either randomly or
‘genetically’ chosen, or else, are all possibilities expressed in different universes, and we are just in the universe that has our particular set of laws?

And the answer is… we don’t know. Physicists are still wondering about it too. And we don’t have a way of figuring it out. The anthropic principle though, would tend to make us think that there must be either multiple coexisting universes, or else multiple children universes.

Just wanted to jump in to support the mentioning of Max Tegmark. I think he speaks to the OPs question, and is a relatively mainstream and well-respected physicist.

The problem with relying on the anthropic principle as the basis for any kind of logical chain of reasoning is that the assumption itself is tainted by the pre-determined acceptance of that conclusion, to wit, that there is something so critically important about life, and particularly about us, with our high falutin’ intellect and self-awareness, that is crucial to the particular selection of universal constants in order to permit us to ask such questions. In plainer terms, it is a re-crafting of the whole “existing to glorify the god(s)” without being specific as to which gods or how they shall be so recognized.

There is no logical or physical reason to believe that we are anything but an accident of nature, and no particular basis to assert that we are globally improbable in all of creation. In fact, thermodynamically regulating, self-organizing structures seem to be common even in systems that are clearly (or at least, apparently) not alive. Under any other set of physical constants it is not difficult to assert that similar self-regulating and perhaps even organizationally self-perpetuating cellular systems would arise from any sufficient complexity of basic rules, even if those systems were not formed of atoms or operate per the rules outlined by Lavoisier and Mendeleev.

Aside from a few cosmologists who enjoy massaging the numbers to see what kind of Wile E. Coyote universe of odd physics they can construct, physicists do not spend their working time trying to ponder such issues or peer through the petticoats of Nature. However, like a Rubik’s Cube, it can be a fun toy to play with, and make you feel really smart by organizing a novel configuration. There is no particular reason to accept that our particular configuration is special (unless you believe, beyond logic or proof, that we ourselves are unique and undeniable), nor to infer that the spectrum of all possibilities must necessarily exist in across a continuum of multiverses.

Stranger

Do you mean something like asking what the world would be like if 1+1=1?

I think that what the OP is asking boils down to the question of whether there are truly any free parameters in physics. To the best of anyone’s knowledge, there are about twenty of those: For instance, we can measure the value of the Fine Structure Constant to very high precision, but nobody knows of a purely mathematical way to derive it, nor any reason to logically think that it could not have been some other value. One can construct a model which is much like the Standard Model in which the fine structure constant is different, and it’s just as self-consistent as the Standard Model (though not consistent with observation, of course). It is a continual effort by physicists to try to reduce the number of free parameters, and in the past, in some cases, we’ve succeeded, by finding mathematical relationships between constants previously believed to be independent. One might hope that eventually, we will be able to find such mathematical relationships between all of them, but that’s only a hope: The Universe offers no guarantees.

That’s a very strong assertion, and it doesn’t seem to be the most popular one. It seems like all we ever hear about is how if any of the basic constants are off even a little bit, things like planets don’t form, etc. I’m going to have to ask for a cite.

A cite for what? That a universe with different basic constants would be capable of condensing some kind of fixed energy into a material-like form? That is impossible to prove or disprove; all we can say is that the structures that allow chemistry as we know it would not be able to form. Developing new physical laws based upon an arbitrary selection of parameters can only be assessed relative to what we already know; it is unlikely we would even be able to accurately interpret novel forms of “matter”. Even our predictions of the behavior of elements in this universe are largely determined on the lower elements, and the behavior of complex systems like proteins is and is in general likely to remain beyond the realm of predictive analysis for some time to come.

Regardless, we cannot infer that just because we are here that we are the result of some kind of special plan or pre-meditated configuration; all we can assert is that this particular confluence of parameters has allowed for us to exist in corporeal, cognitive form. “I think, therefore I am,” should not be construed to be any further evidence of a greater purpose or meaning, even though as natural pattern-solvers we desire to knit ourselves into a tapestry of greater organization.

Stranger

A cite for what? That a universe with different basic constants would be capable of condensing some kind of fixed energy into a material-like form? That is impossible to prove or disprove; all we can say is that the structures that allow chemistry as we know it would not be able to form. Developing new physical laws based upon an arbitrary selection of parameters can only be assessed relative to what we already know; it is unlikely we would even be able to accurately interpret novel forms of “matter”. Even our predictions of the behavior of elements in this universe are largely determined on the lower elements, and the behavior of complex systems like proteins is and is in general likely to remain beyond the realm of predictive analysis for some time to come. However, it can be readily seen by looking at any system of sufficient complexity that organizational patterns–often cellular in nature–come into being and could provide a basis for complex self-organizing and self-replicating patterns.

Regardless, we cannot infer that just because we are here that we are the result of some kind of special plan or pre-meditated configuration; all we can assert is that this particular confluence of parameters has allowed for us to exist in corporeal, cognitive form. “I think, therefore I am,” should not be construed to be any further evidence of a greater purpose or meaning, even though as natural pattern-solvers we desire to knit ourselves into a tapestry of greater organization.

Stranger

For what I quoted:

More specifically, you seem to be dismissing the anthropic principle outright, as something ridiculous, even though it has strong support in the scientific community, and even comes across as somewhat common sense - and at the same time you are promoting the opposite idea, that life or life-like systems will easily arise under any conditions in any type of universe, as being both obvious and supported by the scientific community.

No one said anything about a special plan or pre-meditated configuration. But of course we should examine what kind of parameters both within and of our universe are amenable to our situation. And if that situation if very rare or unlikely, sure it’s possible that it’s just a rare thing that happened, but when it requires very strict conditions, especially at the level of physical laws, it makes plenty of sense to investigate what this might mean about those initial conditions - and whether a huge coincidence is more likely, or a larger set of initial conditions than we were aware of.

There are many different versions of the anthropic principle. Something like the local anthropic principle, say, is so obvious that you just can’t avoid it, and is universally accepted. But once you start talking about the values of fundamental constants of nature, then you have to deal with the strong anthropic principle, which is viewed by most scientists as basically philosophical masturbation, since it relies on premises which are inherently impossible to prove or disprove.

In principle, any computationally universal set of rules – ‘natural laws’ – can yield complexity as great as anything we observe in the universe, including us (provided you believe strong AI is possible). Furthermore, it seems that such rules are the norm, rather than the exception. From that viewpoint, strong forms of the anthropic principle seem rather spurious right off the bat.

In principle? Perhaps… but not in practice. You are essentially arguing against a fine-tuned Universe. It’s a matter of some dispute – you are wrongly acting as though it’s a settled matter.

How so?

I merely gave an argument that I think adds weight to one side of the debate – suggesting that there isn’t just a narrow sliver of the space of possibilities that gives rise to complex structures. That’s just participating in the debate, not acting as if it’s settled…

I disagree that the (strong) anthropic principle has “strong support in the scientific community,”. The idea that Earth-derived life and particularly humanity is somehow unique or privileged is a very common one in science from astronomy to zoology, and has inevitably turned out to be wrong in its core assumptions, from geocentricity or heliocentricity to élan vital. That a narrow range of parameters is necessary to obtain a chemistry that is somewhat akin to that of our universe is true; however, we are ill-equipped to comprehend the structure of alternative physical mechanisms that may give rise to complex systems in other combinations of parameters. It is very restrictive to assume that only carbon-based or even organic chemistry-based structures are the only forms that can possibly support life (or life-like systems). Statistically, we have no basis for arguing the likelihood of life actually emerging from such systems, but it is reasonably to assert that given a practically infinite domain of such capability any possibility of self-sustaining homeostatic systems will likely emerge at some time and place.

Except assessing the coincidental likelihood requires having either an a priori understanding of the mechanisms and influences that lead to the abiogenesis of life, or a statistical population from which to derive epistemological probability of the same. When it comes to dramatic variations in the natural constants and the resulting physical laws and structures that might emerge from them, we have neither. In other words, we can’t say anything particularly insightful about how likely life-like structures are to emerge from other systems of physics, other than that they won’t look anything like us or behave in ways described by our conventional Mendeleev periodic chart.

Stranger

I’m pretty confused by your response here. Your argument was that “[rules that can yield complexity as great as us] are the norm.” This is an assertion, not an argument. And it’s an assertion that is not very well supported by the facts, nor by appeal to authority. Just because a set of rules can support complexity, doesn’t mean that it will without fine tuning. If inflation were much different in our universe, for example…