Are there any real Great Evil-worshipers?

Great Debates
1

Are there any religious movements/groups, or even any group within a religion, that believes that the Great Evil (Satan, the Devil, Shaytan, etc.) is the lord of this world and whom humans should fear, worship, and/or placate? This may be in place of or alongside God (the Great Good).

I know Christianity and Islam places great ability and power in the person of the Great Evil, but they also believe that the Great Evil will be overcome by God’s power and, thus, is not one for God’s people to fear or placate. Instead, God’s people ought to fear and placate God.

I can also see how, amongst Gnostics, the traditional God becomes the Devil (or Demiurge), but even Gnostics focused on the real God rather than the Great Evil.

Is there any movement (I’m more interested in those existing, but if none exists, then one in past will do) that placates, fears, and/or worships the Great Evil?

WRS - no relation between my question and my username.

2

From this site: http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052003a.htm

Traditional Satanists

Although it is very rare, there are several sects who practice Satanic worship, including the Kurdish Yezidi tribes in Iraq, and some . These groups have little or no relation to modern Satanism. The Yezidis, for example, are an ancient sect who worships Lucifer as a force of good, a creator deity who has been forgiven by God for his transgressions. There are also a very small number of “obi men,” or practitioners of forbidden sorcery in parts of Africa, who have embraced practices described in European Grimoires, in order to obtain power or influence over others.

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“These aren’t the grimoires you’re looking for.”

4

Yezidis are not Satanists or Devil-worshipers, etc. They are angel-worshipers. They don’t believe in the Devil or any such Great Evil figure. They are a syncristic (sp?) religion, being an amalgamation of Christianity, Manechaeism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, etc. (As well as incorporating elements against Christianity, Islam, etc.)

They do believe the common Christian myth that Lucifer was the brightest of angels, who fell; unlike the Christians, they believe that God restored Lucifer (Melek Ta’us or Peacock Angel) to full favor. In no way is Melek Ta’us evil - Lucifer/Melek Ta’us being restored to favor is very, very different from Satan or the Devil being restored to favor. (It is unfortunate that people continue to associate Yezidis with Satanists.)

WRS - just making clear.

5

Most Satanists do not worship Satan like Christians, Muslims, etc worship God, but instead take Satan as a model of an extreme individualist, who was banished to hell for being a free thinker. I believe many Satanists are actually atheists/agnostics. Many are also objectivists.

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To beleive in Satan… you must beleive in God no ? Atheists by definition don’t beleive in God or any byproducts like the devil.

Though being an atheist I could “sympathisize” with the “free thinker” idea you mentioned… but hardly beleive or even worship and still be an atheist.

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Did you read what he wrote? Satanists neither worship nor believe in Satan. They just use the myth of Satan as a model for individualism.

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hhmm… ok… there are better models for individualism. Still being a Satanist means either worshipping or following Satan’s example I would suppose ?

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Yes. They think of Satan as a sort of modern day Prometheus. Although I’ll be the first to admit there is a big difference in the reason the two were punished. It basically comes down to the whole mount the heavens, man is only held back by what he thinks he is forbidden to do.

None of them I know claim to worship him, or even believe in him to a point. Here’s a good point of reference for the ones I know:

They associate with the ideals of the name. Satan, or Ha-satan = the adversary. Not necessarily an individual but an ideal or an office. Or to quote one of my friends (and I’m pulling this from memory, so it might not be to the letter):

“How could anyone like the idea that we were created to worship somebody. What an egotist! Who wants to die only to have to prance around and sing praise to someone’s name? …**blah blah blah.*”

*the blah blah blah is not condoning the rest of his quote as mindless babble. It’s mereling marking the point where I rolled my eyes in the back of my head and quite listening.

So anyways, they hate the fact that the reason they were created was worship, and so they look to the fella whom pissed of the big G the most. Then they follow his example, or the belief that the search for power and you can be your own god of you try is the example.

Thus we start into pacts. Making pacts with demons is an easy way to get more of what you want. Many people still hang onto the old belief that selling your soul is the way to get the pact done. Not so. Apparently demons prefer tobacco, meat, gold or use of your body for a bit of carnal pleasure. After all, why would a demon want to sign an elaborate pact to only get your soul. If you’re dealing with them that intimately, they’re probably fairly assured that it’s their property anyway.

Sorry if I’m getting of subject there a little bit.

I’ve heard of Yezidis being refered to as Luciferians, but never Satanists.

I believe what the OP is refering to are the self labeled “Devil-Worshippers” of the big 80’s scare. As far as I know, their existance was pulled out of mid-air, though a few rebellious teenagers might have claimed to be one. There were a few star struck cases such as Richard Ramirez, and the whole West Memphis Three thing helped fuel the fire. Modern day Satanists, like Jews, do not wish to partake in a blood sacrifice.

I’ll add more later if needed
-The MeatBeats

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No. There is no “worship” in Satanism as a Judeo-Christian or Muslim would understand the term.

The Church of Satan is (as was stated before) mostly comprised of agnostics, athiests or objectivists. One of the first observations most Satanists go through (as Anton LeVey observed at the beginning of the movement) is that Westerners are all indoctrinated by Christian mythology and reliigious symbolism by mere fact of being raised in our culture - even if we ourselves were not raised religiously. His contention was that to be a true free-thinker, one has to shed oneself of the cultural-religious baggage that we don’t even consciously know we’re carrying. One of the best (in his opinion) ways to do this is to be subjected to Christian symbols in “blasphemous” context until it doesn’t bother you anymore. When you get to the point where a naked woman lying on an altar holding a snake underneath an upside down crucifix surrounded by an inverted pentacle and goat’s head doesn’t bug you - you’ve successfully shed your Christian induced preconceptions and can now begin the path to true free thinking and self-empowerment.

“Satan” was chosen because that name (and the Judeo-Christian entity it denotes) is one of the ultimate Christian symbols that needs to be shed. A Satanist who still believes in Satan is a Satanist who missed the point.

Also, Satanists view the mythical Satan as an individualist - he thought for himself and exercised Free Will (which angels aren’t even supposed to have, so this was quite an accomplishment) and made his own decisions about his role in things. They do not believe that he really existed, but they believe that his story holds valuable lessons, and that the negative light the Judeo-Christian stories hold him in says negative things about the Judeo-Christian systems and their devaluing (indeed, criminalization and damnation) of free-thinking and independance.

More information can be found here at the Church of Satan’s Website . This is the group started and endorsed by Anton LeVey. You might find the history particularly interesting. There are other Satanic groups out there, many of whom left the Church of Satan at some point over political or power struggles, any many of whom got really caught up in the symbols and trapping of Satanism and substitued those for the symbols and trappings of Christianity. Talk about getting whoooshed!

As Filthy Beast of Meat and Hair says, there is no evidence that there were any “devil worshipping child molesting animal sacrificing Satanic” cults in the '80s scare. Media and parental suspicion of* Dungeons and Dragons*, combined with unethical “cult deprogrammers” found themselves a new fear to exploit.

11

To address the OP, there are many indigenous religions such as Santeria, Voudoun and Ifa (the only three I know anything about, and it’s about thismuch) do worship what we would consider negative or evil spirits, as well as good. In these systems, it’s impossible and undesireable to try and divide the two. The spirits or orisha are very, very powerful and great power means that have the ability to cause healing or harm, just by their very nature. ALL spirits must be placated, not just “friendly” ones.

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I can’t say anything about Vodun or Ifa, but you’re on to something about Santeria. (Can’t believe I missed it.)

From what I understand, none of the Orichas can be called evil, but that doesn’t mean that what They do can be classified as good or evil. There’s a very strong sense that sometimes one has to use measures that others might consider to be bad, evil, or barbaric. My madrina (godmother in Santeria) told me that negative workings against other people are very, very bad; she would not allow any of her godchildren to engage in such activity. But if I need protection or to get rid of an enemy, the Orichas (particularly Chango (maferefun Chango!)) will do it, and she will help me in working with the Orichas. In other words, negative workings for good reasons are permitted. Negative workings out of wrong motives are not good. (And if the Oricha notices and decides to punish the creyente, woe to him/her!) There’s a very strong sense among creyentes (believers in the Orichas) that one should not mess with them - the reaction by the Orichas would be very severe. Although loving and caring, the Orichas are also very protective and demanding. (In a similar vein, there’s a strong sense that if a creyente disobeys or works against an Oricha, particularly his/her Oricha (if crowned), the Oricha’s wrath will fall upon him/her, destroying him/her. These aren’t weak forces one works with.)

However, that said, each Oricha has positive and negative aspects (caminos, in the parlance of the creyentes). Ochun (maferefun Ochun!) may bring in love or take a loved one away. Chango (maferefun Chango!)'s fire may warm or burn. Eleggua (maferefun Eleggua!) may open paths or shut doors. Because of the negative caminos, creyentes are very careful to be in balance with the Orichas. If one becomes out of balance with any of Them, the positive aspects are withdrawn and the negative aspects come into play. (This is also why divination is done, or supposed to be done, only by experts. One must know the exact meaning of any throw and, if in any way negative, how to counteract the negativity with offerings or whatever the Oricha in question demands. No one wants to be stuck in a situation where a negative throw appears and no one knows how to respond to it.)

If I remember coprrectly, there are loas in Vodun (such Baron Samedi) that may be viewed as negative. I have no idea about Ifa. Although Santeria claims descent from Ifa, there are very significant differences between the two, especially concerning the various Orichas worked with in Africa.

WRS - a creyente.

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[ Disclaimer note: I am not a Vodunista, though I have studied it somewhat, partly with the possibility of seeking deeper knowledge at some point in time, partly because my primary religion as currently practiced has a lot of influence from the Diaspora religions. I am also operating from memory at the moment, as the book I wanted to confirm my memory against has gone walkabout. ]

My understanding of the Lwa is very similar to what you described about the Oricha (is that a common spelling? I’ve encountered Orisha and Orisa before, but not that one). They are powerful, perhaps elemental forces, Whose attentions can be turned either positively or negatively, depending in part upon mood and in part upon the attitude of the human side of the interaction.

In addition to that, most of the Lwa can be grouped as either Rada or Petwo. (I am simplifying vastly, and from limited knowledge here.) In general, the Rada Lwa are more sedate, calm? Called “cool spirits”. Not sure how to put this. They are considered native to Africa. The Petwo Lwa (“hot spirits”) are the ones whose natures were forged and shaped by slavery and slave rebellion, and native to Haiti; while the core nature is often the same (as in there may be directly comparable Lwa of different groups), it is more likely to manifest in fire. (Petwo celebrations often include, say, fireworks.) It is traditional to worship these separately, with separate altars, separate offerings, even separate rituals, but not everyone does that.

Bawon Samedi is a Petwo Lwa, and His domains are, among other things, cemetaries and graves. (That is the role of the Bawon / Baron family.) I would expect that both of these facts would lead to Him being treated with extreme care, but not considered evil. The Barons are closely related to the Ghede family, which governs both death and fertility.

I suspect a lot of people would class the Rada as “good spirits” and the Petwo as “evil spirits”, but this would not be a Vodou perspective; it would be an imposition of an external classification. (I tend towards a suspicion that very few theological systems have a “god of evil” classification, for whatever value of “god” is used there – I know it’s dubious in the extreme wrt African tradition.)

For what it’s worth, the person I know best who practices Vodou follows Samedi. I don’t know if she considers Him her met tet (“master of the head”), or whether she just has a close relationship. She tends to throw a big-ass Halloween party, though.

14

Everything you wrote is also true of Ifa. It is very, very similar to Santeria in theory and philosophy, and also shares many of the Orisha names and attributes. (Perhaps all of them, I don’t know that much, but I know the ones you mentioned.)

Whether “negative workings against other people are very, very bad” is a matter of ethics that differs widely between practitioners and communities. It also seems to have something to do with age: young people tend to be very, very sanctimonious about not doing negative workings, where older people view things a bit more pragmatically. Most grandmothers would, out of protection of the child’s innocence or body, warn against negative workings. Sorta like marijuana - we all tell our kids not to, and then they’re amazed as they grow up and find out how widespread it is.

15

I use “Oricha” because it’s the Spanish pronunciation - it’s a personal thing. “Orisa” and “Orisha” are transliterations of the Yoruba term (which is written in Yoruba as “Orisa” with a dot under the “s” to give a “sh” sound).

I’m amazed at the similarities between the three religions. None of them believe in evil Beings, yet it may seem so to outsiders. (Perhaps one of many reasons adherents keep their beliefs and rituals behind closed doors, literally in some cases.)

Negative working are rampant in Santeria - some of it justified and a lot of it for petty reasons. Furthermore, there is an expectation that santeras, santeros, babalawos, etc., will simply fulfill a client’s request. My madrina told me how a lady once came to her and asked her to make a certain man fall in love with her. Madrina simply said, “I’m sorry, I cannot help you. Why force him to do that? Instead, go and find a man who loves you for real.” Madrina is quite old and attemps to be as traditional as possible. (I’m finding another madrina, however: one who stays in the area all year. My current madrina stays in PR for half the year.)

[hijack] WhyNot and Lilairen - thank you for your respectful comments and tone when speaking about the Orichas/Lwas. It means a lot to me, personally. [/hijack]

WRS

16

Aren’t Ifa, Santeria, and Voudoun different currents of the same river?

I was under the impression they were, more-or-less, regional varieties of the same faith. Weren’t a significant portion of the slaves sent to the Americas of West African origin?

According to what I’ve gathered, and please tell me if I’m wrong, Baron Samedi=Papa Legba=Ellegua=Eshu (depends on what you want him for), and the rest don’t seem to change too too much - just the spelling of the names. Some of the orishas do seem to have different parts of their natures emphasized in the differing religions, though. I’m not sure if Oya’s owning the cemetaries is mentioned much, or at all, where Baron Samedi’s role is emphasized, f’rinstance.

Purely from written sources and not enough of them, I’d hazard a guess that the Ifan religion recognizes many more orishas than the other two - one source theorized that some of the less popular sects didn’t have enough believers on the other side of the pond to be self-sustaining.

I was also under the impression that Santeria was originally primarily Brazilian, and Voudoun was primarily Haitian and in the southern States.

Cites. uhhhh. Bell, Book, and Candle by I forget who, Santeria by some professor or another, in conjunction with a believer, African Religious Philosophy by what’s his pickle, a bunch of different West African mythology texts (well, okay, folktales), and a handful of other, similar books whose titles and authors completely escape me…
To brutally wrench around to the subject of the OP, though…I don’t think there’s much like that extant anymore. The old Inuit religion was pretty scary, and there was a whole lot of placating a hostile nature and even more hostile shamans, but it’s been pretty much replaced by a type of Christianity.

I think the closest to what you’re looking for, historically, would be Zoroastrian followers of Ahura Mazda, and even then, I don’t beleive there were enough of them to count as the leaders of the faith.

Oh wait.

One of my Asian mythology books (basically a laundry list with precious few details other than “cotton shirt: wash with starch”, or " Umai: Turkic fertility goddess") suggest that you might find what you’re looking for among the Yakuts of Siberia. Details are pretty thin - but the reference is to “Ulu Toyo’n, the malevolent creator spirit”.

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If by “great” you mean significant, having a great effect on history and humanity, I think it would be fair to categorize the Nazis has being “evil-worshippers”. They conciously chose to present a counter-mythology against the predominant Christian ethos of Europe, an Anti-Christ of the Aryan Superman. It lies somewhere in that area between brute superstition and religion, but of an entirely malignant nature. Adolf Hitler would have made Darth Vader crap his pants.

But the catch is, the Nazis didn’t think of themselves as evil, they saw themselves as purveyors of a new and superior morality, free from the ennervating, simpering weaknesses of compassion and mercy. So as evil as Nazism was, it lacks the essential element of cynicism, of following evil for its own sake. The same disclaimer would apply to Pol Pot and Co.: they thought they were right.

In our time, that pretty much just leaves Stalin. But as an absolute cynic, one who regards anything spiritual as a nullity, he can have no concept of evil, he didn’t worship evil so much as reject the very concept. Don’t know if you can claim someone “worships” what he doesn’t believe exists.

So which is more important to the question: whether I think someone worships evil, or if they do?

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tisiphone - Santeria and Ifa come from the same area. Vodun, if I remember correctly, comes from people from a different part of Africa (but near the Yoruba nonetheless). They’re quite similar - different rivers from the same ocean, if you will: but they’re different enough that their communities remain mostly separate. The Religion in Brazil has its origins in Ifa, but has developed separate from Santeria and, thus, has quite a few differences from it.

Yakuts of Siberia - I’ll need to do some research on them. Thanks for mentioning them.

elucidator - thanks for your post. I was thinking more along the lines of actual, concious religious worship of a Being of Great Evil (akin to Satan, the Devil, Shaytan, etc.).

I know in Zoroastrianism there was a movement known as Zurvanism where equal power was given to Ahura Mazda (Hormazd) and Aingra Mainyu (Ahriman). But this was declared a heresy and eradicated. (“Real” Zoroastrianism, the others said, consists of one Supreme Being, Ahura Mazda, against Whom the Great Evil rebels but is powerless over; there’s one supreme principle, not two.)

WRS

19

Ha! Gotcha, yes. Thank you for clearing that up. (My Spanish has faded due to extreme disuse, unfortunately. And I have not yet studied Yoruba, though it’s something I intend to do.)

You’re welcome. I do try to be respectful; I’m glad it registers. (As I said, the practice of my primary religion is somewhat related to the Diaspora religions, so I have some familiarity to start with; I also may or may not be seeking affiliation with a House somewhere in the future.) Also, the whole categorising some of the Lwa (and related entities) as “evil” is one of my pet peeves; one of the Names I serve often gets similar treatment, so the irritation transfers, y’know?
Quoting quickly from another post . . .

I believe the Brazilian-origin religions in the African Diaspora family are Candomble and Umbanda.

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I’m not black or take part of the Candomble… but I’ll try to clear up some on the Brazilian “branch” from what most people know here.

Santeria for starters isn’t a word we ever use here… from what I know its similar but different from African religions practiced here in Brazil.

Not all practices here follow the same traditions either… since it was quite common to bring slaves from different regions so that they couldn’t communicate among themselves. (Divide and Conquer in a way). So there are not only various origins but eventually different variations/traditions.

Orixas, candombles and umbanda do follow some common “lines”. Exu for example is closely associated with evil and dark power (going back to the OP). “Macumba” is a common ritual for doing “bad” things to others… or protection whatever. Its common for laymen, like myself, to call umbanda as macumba in a derrogatory manner. In good part because its done by blacks and the poor.