Are there any TV shows that fail the Bechdel Test?

[Lamia]

@Freudian_Slit

Plus, it’s not as though failing the Bechdel Test means a movie is automatically terrible or sexist. It’s just something that makes you think how few fully developed female characters there are.

Yeah, the punchline of the original strip is that by sticking to these rules about representation of women in film the character hasn’t been able to see a movie in years. She says the last one that passed was Alien, which was six years old at the time.

[marshmallow]

@Slow_Moving_Vehicle

[Bolding mine]

Um, no. The Bechdel test was designed to point out how infrequently women in Hollywood movies are presented as characters in their own right, as opposed to adjuncts or even accessories to the male characters.

Thanks for linking to the original comic, because as it shows it’s about two lesbians figuring out a way to find movies they like. Bechdel herself is a lesbian too. The snark on Hollywood is obvious, but it’s other people who ran away with “the test” as some unifying litmus test for feminism and media. As is often noted in these discussions, the test has nothing to do with whether a work is feminist, has well constructed female characters, or if the women are even important to the plot.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Chronos

I’m not completely certain, but possibly the original Star Trek? There were a few named female characters, but they were all minor enough that it’s plausible that they never talked to each other.

In the episode with Nomad, after Uhura gets her memory wiped, Christine Chapel is seen helping her regain her memories, and they discuss neither Kirk, Spock, nor Roddenberry.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Lamia

When I’ve seen people discussing the Bechdel test with regard to television, they’re usually talking about individual episodes and not the series as a whole. A movie is typically no more than 2-3 hours long, while the complete run of a successful TV series could add up to over 100 hours. I don’t think it’s really within the spirit of the test to count a brief conversation in a single episode of a TV series that ran for years as a “pass”.

That said, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if MASH** didn’t pass even that loose version of the test. There were several recurring nurse characters who had names, but when they talked to each other then IIRC it was usually about the male characters. Then again, it’s possible that the nurses exchanged at least a few lines complaining about their living conditions, talking about the war, etc., and a conversation about treating a patient who happens to be a man is arguably not really a conversation about a man.

Were there any women on F-Troop aside from Wrangler Jane?

There’s several MASH episodes in which Margaret talks to other nurses on non-male topics. She had an old friend who was an alcoholic whom she was trying to save; a female colonel she asked for career advice; and several fights between her and her subordinates.

[notfrommensa]

Leave it to Beaver?

June and Miss Landers (or other Beaver Teacher) might have had scenes together, but they were sure to be talking about Beaver.

Batman?

[Kent_Clark]

Bonanza

Seinfeld?

[GreasyJack]

@armedmonkey

Mr. Ed

Does Wilbur in drag count? Wilbur seemed to be in drag an awful lot in that show.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@kunilou

Bonanza

Seinfeld?

Seinfeld passes easily. Elaine has multiple interactions/rivalries with women that have nothing to do with men. Consider Sue Ellen What’s- her-name, the braless wonder.

[notfrommensa]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Seinfeld passes easily. Elaine has multiple interactions/rivalries with women that have nothing to do with men. Consider Sue Ellen What’s- her-name, the braless wonder.

Elaine and Suzy would qualify too!!

How about Get Smart? Did 99 ever talk to other females?

[Gatopescado]

@Tread

Hogan’s Heroes… maybe

Unfortunately, it also completely fails the “Sniff Test”.

@GreasyJack

Does Wilbur in drag count? Wilbur seemed to be in drag an awful lot in that show.

:eek:

[BigT]

@Chronos

I’m not completely certain, but possibly the original Star Trek? There were a few named female characters, but they were all minor enough that it’s plausible that they never talked to each other.

As I suspected, people have already tackled that one. This site says, that, while it had the lowest in Trek history, 7.5% of episodes passed the test. The season breakdown shows that none of Season 1 passed, but twice as many passed in Season 3 as in Season 2. Given the number of episodes, that means 6 passed, 2 in Season 2 and 4 in Season 3.

Looking at the episode-by-episode breakdown, the ones that passed in Season 2 are

[ul][li]“The Changeling,” where Chapel helps Uhura speak after she’s been mindwiped[/li][li]“I, Mudd,” Uhura talks to the Alice bots about immortality[/ul][/li]
The ones that pass in Season 3 are

[ul][li]“And the Children Shall Lead,” where Chapel asks Mary (the only girl child) if she likes the ice cream [/li][li]“The Lights of Zetar,” where Lt. Romaine and Chapel talk about recording the former’s responses to a medical questionnaire after she faints; [/li][li]“The Cloud Minders” where Two Cloudminders, Vanna and Droxine, argue about the rights of the surface dwellers[/li][li]“Turnabout Intruder” which is complicated, so I’ll just quote what the page says: “This one’s hard to arbitrate because do you count Janice Lester in Kirk’s body as a woman, or Kirk in Janice Lester’s body? Either way, though, this episode passes. Kirk in Lester’s body talks to Chapel [about the Enterprise changing course] and Lester in Kirk’s body talks to Lieutenant Lysa [about informing Starfleet of said course change].”[/ul][/li]
Incidentally, the other Trek series all do better than 35%, with Voyager scoring the highest due to the focus on Captain Janeway and Seven, along with having more women on the main cast with Tores, Naomi Wildman, and Kes.

EDIT: None of these pass the minute-long version of the test. They are mostly just a couple of lines.

[Justin_Bailey]

@kunilou

Seinfeld?

Elaine and Mrs. Seinfeld have a discussion about whizzing in a cup.

[BigT]

@marshmallow

Thanks for linking to the original comic, because as it shows it’s about two lesbians figuring out a way to find movies they like. Bechdel herself is a lesbian too. The snark on Hollywood is obvious, but it’s other people who ran away with “the test” as some unifying litmus test for feminism and media. As is often noted in these discussions, the test has nothing to do with whether a work is feminist, has well constructed female characters, or if the women are even important to the plot.

You said it was about helping lesbians find movies they like. Instead, it’s a critique of Hollywood’s handling of female characters put into the mouths of two female characters (who I’ll take your word for are lesbians) discussing what movies to see. That’s not the same thing.

And while it may not be a litmus test, but it’s a (ironic) feminist critique of Hollywood. You make it sound like a side issue, when it’s the main point.

[Apologies if I misinterpreted the comment to which I’m replying, which seems to be a way of saying you were right in your previous comment]

EDIT: Also note my “none of these” in my previous post refers to the TOS episodes, not the rest of Trek

[Charlie_Wayne]

@Shalmanese

The Bechdel Test is a test for whether a movie contains:

1. Two named female characters,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

It’s commonly used as a commentary about the lack of female representation in Hollywood.

TV shows tend to run far longer than movies and thus, most of them end up passing the Bechdel Test. On the list of TV shows I regularly watch, the only one I can point to that definitively fails is HBO’s Looking. It’s about a group of young gay men in San Francisco and the only named female character is Doris.

Are there any TV shows you can think of though that fail the Bechdel Test?

This test really should qualify the females. For example, mother and daughter shouldn’t count. Cuz they talk a lot about homework. But the only man they talk about is the one man they have in common.

Also, two women who work for a male boss can be expected to talk about him and that really shouldn’t count either. Should it?

[Charlie_Wayne]

Oh no!

I didn’t even realize I had posted this and I just wasted a whole bunch of time editing it and re-editing it because when I tried to post it, I was well over the five minute limit.

And, in the end, I realized it was just a load of dung and I couldn’t possibly post any of it. Oh Dang! Life on the boards. Sucks.

[Nom_de_Plume]

I believe Friends would pass. They had six primary characters, three of which were women. The women often talked about men, but also talked about careers and other things. I would bet most episodes would pass.

Edit: Oops. I should read the OP better. Disregard.

I believe it might be harder to find ones that pass than fail.

[Superdude]

@Gatopescado

SuperJail, unless JailBot is female. But even then, she doesn’t really “speak”.

Go ahead and watch a few episodes while at work. Employment is overrated.

I really dislike the show, though I tend to leave it on in the background because it’s only 15 minutes long.

That said, I LOVE the theme song.

[foolsguinea]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

In the episode with Nomad, after Uhura gets her memory wiped, Christine Chapel is seen helping her regain her memories, and they discuss neither Kirk, Spock, nor Roddenberry.

I see what you did there.

@Nom_de_Plume

I believe it might be harder to find ones that pass than fail.

Yeah, it’s actually very easy to fail. A to Z actually made a joke at the end of an episode about how that episode failed the Bechdel Test, and that show’s regulars were about half women (slightly more, if you count Big Bird but neither her “work husband” nor her superior from corporate).

[Chronos]

First off, this thread is about entire series that fail the test, not just individual episodes. With as often as two-hour movies fail the test, it’s hardly surprising that half-hour episodes would fail it often, too.

Second, yes, the Bechdel test is a very weak test, but that’s part of the point: Even with as weak as the test is, there are still a great many works that fail it (while meanwhile, almost no works fail the reverse test).

And, again, failing the test does not mean that any given work is sexist or anti-feminist or whatever: For instance, failures include Gravity (with only one female character, but she’s by far the focus of the movie) and The Vagina Monologues (which is about as feminist as they come, but being monologues, has no conversations with anyone). It’s only statistically, over the aggregate of all works, that the test is meaningful.

[Junior_Spaceman]

@Chronos

Second, yes, the Bechdel test is a very weak test, but that’s part of the point: Even with as weak as the test is, there are still a great many works that fail it (while meanwhile, almost no works fail the reverse test).

Spot on. And I think a point of the test is to let us think about its obvious companion test - how many shows/movies/books in history would fail a test where the genders were reversed?