That’s splitting hairs - Egypt attacked and penetrated into area held by Israel. From a military point of view, it was an invasion. From a political point of view, you can call it what you want.
Huh? Am I being wooshed?
ak84 --you bolded my statement that “Egypt invaded Israel” as if there is something wrongwith my choice of words.
Here’s the easiest cite that I (or you) could find on this new-fangled thing called the internet:
Wiki simply states that “the war began with a surprise ATTACK when Egypt (and other arab armies) crossed cease fire lines to enter Israeli-held areas”
I say tomato, you say tomato.
I say “invade”, wiki says “attack”.
Get it?
Furthermore, if Egypt had simply consolidated its winnings from the first week of war and fought a defensive war, then it could have legitimately won (although offensive, rather than defensive fighting had always been the Israeli’s strong point). By moving forward outside their fixed SAM umbrella in response to pressure on the Syrian front, the Egyptians suffered an inarguable, ultimately unnecessary defeat, and it was downhill from there.
Arguably, having (encircled, ineffective) troops in the Sinai after the end of the war put them in a stronger position than at its start, but that’s just because the superpowers imposed a ceasefire - those forces were essentially doomed. And besides, it was an advantage they didn’t need. As I noted above, Israel would have been happy to exchange the Sinai for peace even before the war; Hell,we would have given it back just for the chance to talk openly with an Arab government. If anything, the sacrifices the Israeli army made in the Sinai made it psychologically *harder *for use to return it.
As part of the rearrangement of Spain into Autonomous Regions (and Cities), now we get government-assigned holidays at three levels: national, regional and local. Most regions chose as their “main holiday” the feast of their traditional patron saint. Catalunya figured St George wasn’t cool enough; they celebrate their main regional holiday on September 11th, anniversary of the conquest of Barcelona during the War of Succession, after a 14-month siege.
Last I checked, they’re neither an ethnic nor a language group (they’re not the only place where Catalan is spoken, although the way politics are going they may end up being; definitely not an ethnic group).
So tell me. If they had landed a Marine division* near Haifa instead of crossing the Suez, it would have been considered exactly the same:rolleyes: No. It was an attack on territory that was internationally recognized as being part of Egypt which was held by Israel (the rightness or wrongness of that is not at issue here). It was an invasion. Not of Israel. Thats not splitting hairs. Thats just a statement of fact. And in any case, conquering Israel or retaking the Sinai was not part of their plan. Finally, the Egyptians achieved their objectives, thats pretty much a defination of a successful war.
I know that this is a sensitive and emotional topic and in any case is a hijack. I’ll stop now.
*Presuming that you wave a magic wand and give them a major amphibious capability.
In a way it’s news to me too. The people who barely remember Franco or who don’t even know who he was or anything about his politics, except what they learned from TV series Cuéntame and Amor en tiempos revueltos, are the same ones who can’t tell you when did each Republic take place, and there are very few Republican parties (most don’t say anything one way or another, including the Socialist parties).
Also, I’m not sure which Republican ideals is mhendo talking about. I assume he’s talking about those of the Second Republic, but which ones? The ideal of a society without a government? The ideal of a society where the government manages everything and there is no private property? The ideal of a society where religion is forbidden? The ideal of “maybe we should kick the Borbones out”?
Oh, and my apologies matt, I posted about Catalonia before seeing your post…
I agree on the first point with you and so did the Egyptian General staff, they were overruled by Sadat due to political compulsions. The plan was to attack, and sit within the SAM umbrella.
Even after Sharons countercrossing surrounded the Third Army, the Israeli position in Africa was quite precarious, they failed to take either Suez City or Ismailiya and failed to fully secure the logistics supply from the Sinai to the forces in Africa (which is precisely why IIRC the plan had been rejected initially)
I would have to respectfully disagree with the last comment. You know better than I, what the Israeli phyce regarding the Sinai was (though I did not think you were that old) but from 1967 to 1973 there was absolutely no sign that Israel was willing to withdraw. 1973 war changed all that. It made it clear that the Sinai was ultimately undefendable.
Moderating
Let’s not turn this thread into a debate on the 1973 war. If you want to discuss this, please start a new thread in Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Double Ten Day: This one is a victory, although short lived. It celebrates the overthrow of the Qing Dynasty in 1910, but the ROC was thrown out in 1949.
Youth Day: Celebrates the Second Ghuangzhou Uprising, where: Huang Xing and nearly a hundred fellow revolutionaries forced their way into the residence of the viceroy of Guangdong and Guangxi provinces. The uprising was successful in the beginning, but reinforcements of the opposing Qing soldiers then heavily outnumbered them. The uprising turned into a catastrophic defeat.
Armed Forces Day: Celebrates the ROC armed forces, which doesn’t seem to have a great record of winning:The Battle of Dengbu Island (登步島戰役) was a conflict between the Republic of China Army and People’s Liberation Army over Dengbu Island (in the Zhoushan Islands) near mainland China. This conflict occurred from November 3, 1949 to November 5, 1949 and resulted in a Republic of China victory. Nevertheless, the ROC was later forced to withdraw when the PRC gained air superiority over the region, leaving Dengbu Island in the control of the PRC.
Constitution Day: Celebrates the creation of the constitution of Taiwan, made in 1947, after being forced out of the Chinese mainland.
Well, this tidbit of info comes only from playing “Divided Ground : Arab-Israeli wars” (that incidentally I recommand : it’s an excellent computer tactical wargame), or rather from reading the notes about one of the scenarios, but it was my understanding that the Egyptians had in fact surprised the Israelis by having a competent (minor) amphibious capability?
As is very clear from my post, i never claimed that people “don’t even know who [Franco] was or anything about his politics.” That is a disingenuous and dishonest interpretation of my post. My main point, which should be clear to anyone who read it, especially in the context of this thread, is that Franco’s legacy has been pushed aside in the decades since his death. He is not celebrated on a national level the way that many victorious leaders are. Yes, there are no doubt still conservatives and Falangist sympathizers in Spain, who would be happy to return to the era of the Caudillo, but i doubt anyone would argue that Franco is celebrated nationally.
Wow, that’s a really brave assumption you’ve made there, that i’m talking about the Second Republic. What gave you that clue? The fact that i was specifically discussing Franco and the Civil War? No, i was actually talking about the pre-Restoration Republic. :rolleyes:
Are you being purposely obtuse?
Just for the sake of this thread, so it doesn’t get hijacked, i’m not going to bother responding to all your silly options here. I’m just going to say: Maybe i was using the term “Republican ideals” as a useful shorthand for the fairly straightforward idea that a democratically-elected government should be able to govern without being overthrown by a dictator-led (OK, caudillo-led) military uprising.
They did land a force across the bitter lakes. IIRC it was not that successful.
I dunno, when I was in Paris and saw Napoleon’s tomb it wasn’t exactly in a quiet cemetery with no pomp and celebratory airs about it. He’s not only interned among France’s most celebrated heroes, he’s on a raised platform in the fanciest sarcophagus.
Peru’s biggest heroes are mostly from the lost War of the Pacific (1879-1883)
In Chile, the war takes one class to learn in school, in Peru we agonize over every small victory including the Battle of Tarapacá in which, after winning, Peru buried the captured Chilean cannons because we couldn’t transport them and then we retreated 250 km.
If you listen to Peruvians, the war happened last week and we’ll soon get the lost territory back.
BTW, “intelectuals” in Peru always talk about the Spanish Civil War as if it had happened IN Peru and Franco had personally raped their mothers.
For Wikipedia truly to be your friend, you need to do your part with the old reading comprehension thing. In any case, the two holidays commemorating a battle have nothing to do with the Chinese communists, and for the last one you’ve got the timeline completely bollixed up. But hey, I’m sure that won’t bother you, and AK84 is right over there, maybe he can lend you some lube.
The Roundheads won that war, actually.
Israelis (and Jews around the world, albeit to much lesser degree) still celebrate Lag Ba’Omer, in honor of the Bar Kokhva Revolt, whcih started with a thundering defeat of the Roman army, led to two years of independence, and ended with perhaps the worse disaster to befall the Jewish People until the Holocaust. We tend to ignore the last part.
I believe the Spanish Civil War also has the distinction of being one of the few wars where the generally accepted version of events was written by the defeated side, too.
My mother came up with another one for Spain:
Castilla-León was formed by putting together the three provinces which formed the region of León and six from the previous region of Castilla la Vieja (Old Castille). There was no historic “regional holiday” to reuse; their main holiday is Comuneros Day, which is celebrated every April 23rd with the main celebrations taking part in Villalar de los Comuneros, where these were defeated.
And mhendo, what I aimed to point out is that ideals such as freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of association, or democracy, not only are much, much older than Spain’s Second Republic and completely unrelated to whether a country is a Monarchy or a Republic, but were things that the two main groups forming the Republican side, specially the Communists (who were the ones who domintated, specially after killing many of their anarchist allies), were very much against.
That’s a good one.
Yeah, but he was put there by King Louis-Phillippe. It was before the Republic really began.