I’ve read many discussions about who should vote, who does or doesn’t pay taxes, how there are too many taking out and not putting in, etc.
So I’d like a few facts and am hoping if someone has them to hand. I’m from the UK, but let’s start with facts from the US. Although I’m asking for facts there are also some questions that are open for debate.
From here on I will define ‘useless’ people as those considered lazy and entitled who take more from the government than they give, and who generally live by taking from other people. I know that many people need help sometimes, and many people have just had back luck, but I don’t think anyone can deny that there are ‘useless’ people out there.
Are there too many ‘useless’ people in the US? Can anyone state some actual statistics rather than just feelings which may or may not have been whipped up by TV and personal prejudice?
Are there more ‘useless’ people now than ever before in history? Obviously not total amount, but as a percentage I suppose.
If you think there are too many ‘useless’ people then how would you go about reducing this amount if you were the President?
You mean like the typical CEO and the Tea Party-ites?
Raise taxes on the rich and more seriously crack down on fraud and other corporate violations of the law so they pay their fair share and do less harm.
Well no I didn’t mean them, but they can be included if you like. I’m as liberal as the next guy, and if I was a US citizen I’d vote for anyone who wasn’t a current Republican / Tea Partier, but I don’t doubt that there are people who are a drain on society, and while some of the rich may count, I doubt there are millions of them. What I want to know is, have things changed, are there more now than ever for example?
I think it’s safe to say, and please argue with me if you disagree, that there is a limit to how many such people society can support, I don’t know what the limit is, and I don’t know how close or not the US is to that limit. But there may be someone out there who has some ideas / knowledge about this.
But they suck up far more wealth per person and do far more damage. It wasn’t the homeless who created the present economic mess; it was a bunch of rich people.
And you don’t sound remotely “liberal”.
America has been cutting back on aid for decades, becoming more and more amoral and willing to let the unfortunate rot and suffer. And at the same time, America has been pushing more and more people into poverty. So your question is unanswerable because it is fundamentally flawed; it assumes that there aren’t large numbers of people who we are just letting rot on the streets, and it assumes that no people are poor and dependent through no fault of their own.
So is someone who’s handicapped and can never hold a job useless according to your definition? How about someone who’s just retired after a long career and will be receiving Social Security for the next few decades? Are they useless? Is someone in prison useless? How about someone who’s been desperately trying to find a job for months without success? Are they useless? Also, pick some legal activity which you personally think of as stupid and counterproductive to society. Is someone who holds a job in that field useless?
I realize this is GD, but I’ll give my uncited opinion.
Any number of intentionally useless people is too many, but I’m not sure their numbers are so large as to either be a significant drain on the economy, or worth the effort* to ferret them out.
I think we have a have a significant problem of people being unintentionally useless. The workforce needs have changed drastically, and we (the collective “we”) led a large part of our young population into massive debt for college educations that are unusable in the working world. [Anecdote] Yet again this year, my company is asking for volunteers to fly around the country in the spring, and attempt to recruit the few graduates who’ll have the degrees/credentials we need. We will be competing with other companies, and will usually lose. My boss went on several of these junkets last year, and returned with one individual… who was promptly lured away by a competitor.
*I interpret the OP’s definition as those who choose not to contribute, not those who don’t know how. As near as I can tell, he’s also excluding criminals (a whole 'nuther argument).
**Even as a lifelong Republican, I think the current “prove you’re job hunting” rules for collecting unemployment are appalling. Just give 'em their check for chrissakes. I’m pretty sure they’ll hunt for jobs without the state hassling them. (sorry about the pseudo-rant)
I’ll bet very few people regard themselves as useless. Reminds me of the bit in Shaw’s “Pygmalion” about the undeserving poor vs. the deserving poor. “Well, maam, we undeserving poor eats just as much as the deserving poor, and we drinks quite a bit more!”
And as Der Trihs points out, you don’t sound liberal at all.
I’m not sure why I don’t sound liberal, are you saying liberal people aren’t allowed to think there are some bad people in the world. I’ve never said I think these people are causing the problems, other do say this and I’m wondering if it’s actually true in any meaningful way, I don’t know the statistics. I also never said anything about disabled people etc. and I guess I meant people who could work but choose not to, and don’t tell me these people don’t exist.
As a liberal I’d like to know the facts before I jump to conclusions, seems fair enough to me.
I agree this is a Republican talking point, what I’m wondering is how far away / close to the truth are they.
I also agree that the rich, especially the right-wing Americans, not sure if Bill Gates is so bad for example, are not helping at all and things are really screwed up at the moment, but they’re not what I’m asking about at the moment.
I’m actually interested in an answer for 3) from the OP. Are we talking about finding a Final Solution for the Welfarish Problem, transportation, workhouses ?
Ah yes, the wealth that was just sitting around for the taking, in the national wealth pile. Gold nuggets, strewn about the ground, and those filthy rich scooping up more than their share.
On your second point – if mortgage owners had abided by their contractual obligations, and/or not entered into stupid obligations they couldn’t afford, much of the present economic mess would have been averted.
Just because people don’t have much money hardly makes the “useless”.
We do need janitors, waiters, busboys etc.
Beyond that I nearly spit up my coffee laughing at the OP’s claim that he’s a liberal.
His first post would strike any reasonable person as being trollish but since then he’s been comedy gold, particularly since we’re required to take everything he says at face value.
Hmm, I guess I haven’t explained myself well. Sorry for that.
I’m not an idiot, I’m not young and naive, and I’m not right-wing at all. I could have asked lots of liberal leaning questions I suppose, but since I understand them I haven’t.
I have heard people say there are lots of no good people out there taking money from the state and providing nothing in return. I know this is true sometimes, I know some people like this. What I’d like to know is just how bad it is. I’m not saying this is the big problem in the US, I don’t even know if it is a problem in the US, but if anyone has a concrete answers, or guesstimates, or just ideas then I’m interested. I’m not sure why this is ‘comedy gold’ or why people are failing to understand what I’m interested in.
If there are plenty of people who are doing this I’m interested in hearing if anyone has any ideas on how to help them. I don’t mean put them all in prison, or shoot them all (I suppose someone out there may think these are good ideas), I just mean how to reduce the number of people who possibly know no other way of living.
Okay, does anyone out there understand me now, or am I just not making any sense today? It doesn’t seem so difficult to me!
Well someone may be, but not me. Here in the UK there are families who have been on welfare for generations, I’m sure there are families like that in the US - what can be done to help them to become more productive members of society? I know people will take that the wrong way, but I don’t know how else to word it.
For Der Tris, how do we fix the rich problem, is it just a matter of taking more taxes, they’d still be morons. What else could be done?
But how many of those don’t need to work because they get money from their partner or somewhere else. How many of those are disabled, sick, retired, etc. It seems highly unlikely that almost 50% of people in the US get all their money from the government.
I don’t think it’s totally unanswerable, but I agree it’s tough. I absolutely agree that America has been cutting back on welfare for many years now. I don’t know the extent of the impact because I don;t live there, but it sounds bad to me. I still don’t understand why Clinton reduced benefits and is still liked.
If there are large numbers of people on the streets, poor through no fault of their own then that’s a problem I assume, not just for them but for society as a whole. Just how bad is it right now, how much poverty is there?
That’s ridiculous, blaming the mortgage owners! Who has the professional expertise in these areas? The bankers and the realtors! Who has a professional obligation to not to make bad loans? The bankers! Who stood to make tons of money by ignoring their professional obligations by writing these bad loans and then selling them off? The bankers and the realtors! Which is EXACTLY what they did!
Go ahead, blame the victims. It works for real rape, all too often, will probably work for economic rape as well.