Are these people racist? (another Obama thread)

Great Debates
1

…or just provincial?

Before I watched the clip, I didn’t put much stock in the white racists-love-Hillary position. First off, it seems hard to believe that such folks would be in the Democratic Party (I know, how naive). Secondly, it seems hard to believe that such folks would align themselves with someone who has always had the support of black Americans and other minority groups. And then thirdly, Jeremiah Wright aside, Obama is not a Jesse Jackson or an Al Sharpton. He’s non-threatening, eloquent, son-of-a-white-mama, and doesn’t fit into any racial stereotype. In my naive way of thinking, I guess it seemed to me that even racists would have a hard to hating him.

But after watching that clip and seeing those interviews, the scales have fallen from my eyes. The reporter is right; those people were hiding behind euphemisms and code words. And even if they are honest positions, they’re still ludicrous. Why would someone assume that Obama doesn’t know the words to the Star Spangled Banner or the Pledge of Allegiance? Why would you assume the guy is lying when he has said repeatedly that he’s not Muslim?

I’m hoping the whole thing was edited so that it only appeared that there were no white rural supporters of Obama. Because if those people are representative of the electorate, Obama’s going to lose.

The debate: Is it fair for us to assume those people in that clip are racist? If so, do you think their mindset is wide-spread or just endemic to West Virginia? What is it going to take for Obama to convince them he’s presidential?

2

I think Senator Webb, has pretty much confirmed these people are as they are portrayed. He said they have a saying there, “If you’re poor and white; you’re out of sight…” very similar to the, “If you’re black…get back” saying. He acknowledged that the two groups have similar feelings of betrayal and resentment by and of the government and that was reflected in the way that they voted.

I think the thing to realize is that Obama didn’t campaign there and that didn’t help; add that to the pundits playing up the “white working class” and you have a sort of “pass” to rationalize and verbalize their views. The whole, “there’s nothing wrong with me…the press says, we don’t vote for this guy.”

However we know that Obama can win white voters, we know that Obama can win working class white votes; what we know now is that Obama has problems with the lowest whites on the ladder; limited within an area of the country… but that’s may not a purely Obama or a race problem; it’s may a Democratic problem, as I believe Kerry had the same problem with these types of voters as well.

The chances are that they will never vote for Obama and I think that some feel he should just write off that state and focus on the ones he can win…but I still think he should have campaigned in those states and let them see him without the filter of Clinton and press.

I think as the press finally starts digging into this stuff and stop skimming the data, we’ll get a better idea of what’s going on. I mean, they noted that white working gas people who felt the gas tax was a good idea voted for Clinton; they wanted to believe the ‘quick fix’, regardless of whether or not it was going to come, because the last time they had dough was under Bill Clinton and he was coming with her. Those who realized that Clinton and McCain were pandering voted for Obama.

I think that’s how the country is going to vote this year, it’s going to be question of long term goals, versus feel good stuff of flags, bibles, guns and taxes…and not letting Gays get married. Usually winner for the Repubs, but not this time.

Webb mentioned that if someone could finally unite the African-Americans and the Rural Whites into a voting block, the country would have a completely new landscape.

It looks to me, like the only person running so far who can have a chance of doing that, despite the losses is Obama.

YMMV…of course.

3

I think there was a mixture. I’m not persuaded that every single person’s position in that clip was ludicrous or racist; some clearly were.

But there’s been a bunch of smear material concerning Senator Obama’s alleged lack of patriotism. Some of it arose from the pictures taken during the Iowa steak fry, which did indeed show Senator Obama standing during the National Anthem but not placing his hand over his heart. Now, you may decide that conerns like that are “ludicrous,” but such gestures matter to people – so if you’re taking the position that only an idiot or a racist would refuse to vote for Obama because of his failure to put his hand over his heart during the anthem, then you’re in for a rude surprise about the number of people you’ll end up characterizing as idiots and racists.

On the other hand, that appears to have been an isolated incident – there are plenty of other instances of Obama with his hand over his heart for the anthem. I have to admit that personally, I don’t see how one can make that mistake; I absolutely guarantee you there is no picture anywhere of me during the national anthem without my hand over my heart (or saluting, if in K of C regalia or Scout uniform), or failing to salute appropriately when the colors pass in review.

The other issues – I have to say that the Muslim bit sounds especially crazy to me, considering how much flogging he got for the views of his Christian pastor. Odd to slam the man for his secret Muslim beliefs, and then to turn around and slam him for his pastor’s beliefs on top of that. But I can see how someone with only desultory attention paid to news might miss that nuance, hear the name “Bracak Hussein Obama,” and conclude he’s Muslim. So there’s a view that’s ludicrous, but not racist.

And finally we get to the two people who I think were racist - one covertly, who said something like, “Let’s just leave it at that…” and one who outright answered that no, a black man shouldn’t be president. They were obvious racists.

4

Which really means they were just too unsophisticated to hide it.

A lot of the WV and mountain PA interviews had a “let’s make fun of the hillbillies” sideshow quality to them. Not that I in any way endorse their racism (that should be obvious enough), but it’s just too easy for for college educated suburbanites to sneer a poor white folks who haven’t had their advantages.

A lot of people in Chicago, NYC, Boston, Philly, you name it, feel the same way as those WV folks. City folks are just more circumspect about expressing their hostility, with a broader vocabulary of euphemism and feel good speak bullshit.

5

Racism is in every city and county and state. However in some places racism is strong enough to impact the election. I hope I am wrong but I think it will be difficult to elect a black man president in America.

6

There is absolutely no way that African-Americans and Rural Whites will ever be voting in the same block. You seriously underestimate the division between the two groups.

7

This is Great Debates, where a gratuitous assertion may be equally gratuitously denied.

Therefore: no, you’re wrong.

8

Wow. That surprised even this WV-ian. That report is from Martinsburg which is a fast-growing suburban bedroom community kind of town - the last stop of the commuter train from DC. It’s not even close to being the worst poverty-stricken, uneducated, stereotype-affirming regions of the state.

9

I think it s fair, because I think that they were hiding their true feelings behind bullshit rationalizations. I’m willing to be proven wrong, but I’ve seen to much of that stuff to bet that way.

Perhaps wide, but hopefully not deep. Certainly not endemic to WV alone.

Them? Nothing will suffice.

10

LOL

There’s a fair amount of research by psychologists on the question of hidden racism in people who would absolutely deny holding such sentiments.

http://faculty.washington.edu/agg/iat_validity.htm
It’s clear that the post WWII educational system and media strongly stigmatize any expression of openly racist sentiment. So people who’ve been acculturated to these institutions generally don’t express openly racist sentiment. Doesn’t mean they don’t have them. Just means they’ve been trained out of expressing them openly. If they do in fact spout off, the boom comes down.

The real difference between WVns & metro dwellers, then, is that metro dwellers are acculturated to only express these sentiments when they are sure the surroundings are appropriate.

http://www.udnews.org/2007/01/study_finds_hid.html

11

I watched the video and now I feel ill and not a little ashamed of those fellow Americans. The elderly woman I can put down to “she doesn’t know any better” aka she’s too old to change. The young woman in the coffee shop? Despicable.

If these people (rural, poor white) see Obama as UN-American (she didn’t know he was American–you have to be American to run for President. <sigh>) and Muslim, despite all the (bad) press his Christian church has received… it makes me lose hope that we can ever move forward*. I will support Obama now that it seems certain he’ll get the nomination. I like him and I support most of his views (he and Hillary are more alike than they’re different). And what was with the woman re the “yankee do it”? Does she have any clue how hard it is to get into law school, to run for public office, to be a black man with a white mother and succeed in both “camps”?** WTH?

*I guess we have moved ahead in that no one interviewed was saying that a woman shouldn’t be President. Then again, I’m sure that contingent is out there as well.
** I don’t know what it’s like, either, but I can believe it wasn’t easy.

In sum, yes, I think this is an example of “coded racism”. Sometimes I get impatient with this sort of stuff. Afterall, I reserve the right to dislike/be critical of you because I think you’re rude/loud/nasty/bad driver–it has nothing to do with your being black/hispanic/different than me. But here–this is nothing but racism, IMO. The man has always voted Dem, but now suddenly can’t? I wish the interviewer had pressed him and the bitch in the coffee shop. To me if feels like the interviewer almost colluded with them. Silence can mean disapproval, but be heard as tacit approval.

12

I wish the friend of woman in the coffee table had opened her mouth. Her body language showed that she didn’t agree with what the other woman was saying, at least not all the way. Maybe when the camera was off, she spoke up and challenged her friend.

So what you’re saying is that this country is indeed full of idiots? Out of all the sins a candidate can have, forgetting to do a symbolic gesture ONE time falls very very very low on the list for me. You bet anyone who believes otherwise is a damn fool. As long as people hold on to such trivial notions, they’ll continue to be the subject of derision and ridicule by the “elite”. And I will feel free to blame them for our country’s failings and embarrassing image across the world.

Seeing as how I haven’t said the PoA since I was a kid, I can see how a person can make that mistake quite easily. In fact, I’m not even sure I put my hand on my heart the last time I recited it. Let’s hope no one took my picture! I’d hate for my humanity to be revealed in such a way.

13

Maybe the Pledge of Allegiance stuff resonates because Mrs. Obama famously remarked that she was never proud of her country until they started voting for Obama.

Is it silly? Sure, but it is the kind of gaffe that campaigns want to avoid.

How characteristic is it that non-Obama supporters are racist? Hard to say. The ‘sideshow’ quality was mentioned previously in the thread. I have little doubt that the folks who made the YouTube went out and looked for people who supported Hilary who were, or could be edited to appear, racist. Frankly, they didn’t look that much more profound a group as the black woman who voted for Obama because he was going to give her a better life.

The purpose of the piece, I suspect, was to try to make non-Obama supporters feel guilty. That may play with Democrats - maybe not. Reasonable folks? Probably less.

Seems kind of silly to play the race card so soon into the general election, but that’s not my call. If Obama really wants an adult conversation about race in the US, this may not be the best opening for it.

Regards,
Shodan

14

Which of those links shows that the people in this clip are possessed of hidden racism?

The Karpinski and Hilton paper offers evidence for the existence of “implicit associations,” between positive words and positive attributes; the study uses insects and flowers and I can find no effort to discuss race.

The second study purports to show that by using “young” and “old” names, and pleasant and unpleasant words, we may conclude that there is a saliance asymmtery in these associations.

The third link leads to a compendium of links apparently discussing the validity of these conclusions.

And, also, people that don’t have these sentiments ALSO don’t openly express them, because, hey - they don’t have them. So why should we conclude, based on the fact that these people don’t express them, that they have them?

15

No, she didn’t.

16

Well, these people vote.

I agree that a one-time mistake is not relevant; if the candidate refused, as a matter of personal principle, to ever offer that gesture of respect during the anthem, it would make a difference to me.

I believe I can defend that view ina non-idiotic way, but the mere fact that you’re willing to dismiss the contrary view as idiotic is precisely the sort of elitism that gets candidates slammed and loses elections for liberals. Who then have the questionable satisfaction of wringing their hands at how “Jesusland” has elected another president, etc etc.

You know you’re supposed to put your hand on your heart? Why wouldn’t you have done? Isn’t it an automatic gesture?

17

What did she say?

18

I think we’re seeing the Dems’ strategy on how to lose 2008.
For the last couple elections, telling people that they were morons if they didn’t vote for their candidates didn’t seem to work. So, evidently, now you’re a racist if you don’t vote for their candidate.

Sure, some of the people on the video were definitely racists, like the woman who said that she didn’t think a black person should be president. But those who felt they couldn’t trust him, or didn’t like him, or bought into claims of him being a ‘secret Muslim’? Well, the last might betray implicit bigotry, but even then, not necessarily racism.

It’s weird… if people make a gut decision for or against the ‘likability’ of a candidate, or if they decide to jump to another party for the election? Obviously, it’s racism if their subjective gut reaction isn’t for the black candidate, and what other answer could one find for a life long democrat voting for McCain than that they hate black people?

19

Not to me. I believe we’ve had this discussion before ( probably several times ), but I was raised to think that you placed your hand over the heart during the POA, but just stood respectfully and silently during the anthem ( ANY nation’s anthem ).

20

She said for the first time in her adult life she was really proud of her country. She said nothing at all about *never *being proud at all.

She also did not cite as her reason that people started voting for Obama. She did say that Obama doing well was part of it, and that people being hungry for a change was part of it.