Are things "dumbed down" for Americans that aren't for other nations or cultures?

Factual Questions
101

[QUOTE=TheLoadedDog]
This doesn’t really address the OP either, though. I don’t think anybody is saying Americans as individuals are going to be any smarter or dumber than the citizens of any other country. The question is whether things are “dumbed down” for them, which is a bit different. You could dumb down something for Stephen Hawking if you thought he’d be more inclined to buy it.

It’s pretty much established that the US motoring public prefers automatic transmissions. This is not the same as saying that they are somehow genetically incapable of figuring out a gearstick and a clutch.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you are following my point, because I am not asserting the things you mentioned above. I think you are arguing cultural differences between Americans and non-Americans. These differences are not automatically applicable to the OP.

In order to qualify as dumbing down for American consumers, an existing product must be simplified in order to increase the American consumers’ acceptance. This clearly wasn’t the case for automatic transmissions. For years, every car in the world was manual. In the late 40’s and 50’s, American car manufacturers begain introducing more models with automatic transmissions. Despite the increased cost, these models eventually took off and became the standard instead of the option. I guess foreign car manufacturers had to follow suit in order to remain competitive in the US. But surely that doesn’t qualify as dumbing down, right? An innovation becomes standard in the market. Foreign manufacturers have to include power windows and locks as a standard feature in order to stay competitive. Is this a case of dumbing down?

Maybe the difference in opinion is based on our definitions of dumbing down. I threw mine definition out earlier in the thread. What would be the definition of dumbing down such that it would include automatic transmissions?

102

CaveMike, I agree that I wasn’t addressing the OP - I was just addressing a subsequent comment that one Russian’s view of driving is representative that of all Europeans.

I don’t believe driving automatics is anything to do with dumbing down (though I do personally hold that one has more driving control when using a manual). I have no doubt that were manual transmissions popular in the US, then the vast majority of Americans would be thoroughly adept at using them.

103

[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]

With few exceptions, Acura/Infiniti/Lexus vehicles are NOT rebadged versions of equivalents Honda/Toyota/Nissan products - not in their respective markets. There is no Toyota equivalent to the Lexus IS in North America. Sure, it was once sold in other markets as a Toyota Altezza, but at least in those markets, it DID compete with Mercedes (well, more with BMW really).

The Japanese were actually a bit more honest about it than the Detroit Big 3, instead of slapping a new badge on a Corolla and selling it for double the price.
[/QUOTE]

I was referring only to Acura in 1988 when Mr Floppy came to Washington.

Acura’s first flagship was the Legend which was a Honda Legend. The NSX (which came later) was a Honda NSX and the Integra was a Honda Integra.

The next model was the Vigor. It was a Honda Vigor.

Obviously, the brand has evolved and is now less badge engineered but the first four models offered by Acura definitely were Hondas outside of the US. I do know having been to the UK recently that the TSX is a ‘rest-of-the-world’ Accord.

The Lexus LS was a new ‘unique to Lexus’ vehicle. The rest of their initial line up were badge engineered Toyotas. Not sure today but the ES has always been a Camry based model.

Infiniti’s flagship, the Q45 was a Nissan President and all of Infiniti’s early vehicles were Nissans in other parts of the world and to this day, the G35/37 is a Nissan Skyline.

I’m not saying any of this was a bad thing - Ford and Chevy have been doing it for decades. However, as a visitor to the US at the time, and as a car enthusiast for decades, my opinion was (and still is) that you were all being duped.

104

[QUOTE=MrFloppy]

I’m not saying any of this was a bad thing - Ford and Chevy have been doing it for decades. However, as a visitor to the US at the time, and as a car enthusiast for decades, my opinion was (and still is) that you were all being duped.
[/QUOTE]

The reasoning behind it was that Americans apparently thought Toyota, Nissan, and Honda could only make cheap, reliable cars, but nothing of a caliber that could compete against the luxury or European brands. So they invented a new badge.

That sounds like a form of dumbing down to me. Especially considering if any consumer would look at their Japanese pages they would see that Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have been making rather luxurious and sporty models for years, in some cases for longer than they were available in the U.S.

And let’s not forget the ‘Scion’ badge. Once again just another name for ‘Toyota’. :slight_smile:

105

I know that. The point is that none of these cars were closely elated to any OTHER Honda cars, except the Integra which was somewhat similar to the Civic, and the TL which is a gussied up North American market Accord. That’s not badge engineering. The TSX is called an Accord in the rest of the world, but it shares almost nothing with the North American market Accord, being a much smaller car made in Japan for Japanese/European markets. The North American Accord, made in Marysville, OH, is exported to and sold in Japan as the Honda Inspire.

Same thing for Lexus and Infiniti. For Lexus, only the ES is essentially a Camry. All their other cars(I think one of the SUVs is also badge engineered, but SUVs suck so who cares) are unique to Lexus and not related to any lower end Toyota offerings. In Japan/EU, they may have been sold under the Toyota badge, but they were DIFFERENT cars. Infiniti similarly shares nothing with Nissan’s north American lineup other than the QX and Armarda truck based SUVs.

Most of the Japanese lux models don’t even share platforms with their lower end siblings, compared to, say Volkswagen/Audi. OTOH, it’s hard for GM to tout Buick as an upscale brand when Buick’s offerings are identical to Chevy or Pontiac offerings. That’s “badge engineering”.

106

[QUOTE=Long Time First Time]
If you’ve ever seen the International CNN channel vs. the American CNN channel there is no doubt that the news in this country is extremely dumbed down. I don’t believe spending hours and hours on celebrity screw-ups are a mainstay of TV in other countries.
[/QUOTE]

I thought of CNN too. Still, is CNN deliberately “dumbed down for stupid Americans because they all have short attention spans and can’t understand serious news” by the powers that be, or was it “Fox News has better ratings! Better air more celebrity news to compete with them.”

When I’m thinking of “dumbing down”, I’m not necessarily thinking about transmission preferences (there are many cars with manual transmissions in all price ranges available in the US, for those that want them), or simple changes in book titles. With the example of Japanese video games given earlier, it wasn’t just “dumbing down” for Americans, but for all Western countries. What I’m thinking of is something like this:

Hypothetical example 1: The BBC produces and exports a documentary on the Rasta movement. The version that goes to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland are unaltered. The version that goes to the US includes subtitles whenever anyone with the slightest Jamaican accent speaks, because it’s assumed that Americans are too stupid to comprehend the accent, too lazy to attempt comprehension or not as worldly enough to be familiar with it compared to everybody else.

Hypothetical example 2: a new science-related cable channel goes on the air. The international version of the channel features shows on geology, genetics, advanced physics, and so on. The US version of the channel shows programs about metaphysics, megadisasters, out-of-place objects, and so on, because TPTB believe that Americans aren’t smart enough to understand the more advanced stuff.

Hypothetical example 3: a chocolatier in Switzerland decides to export their chocolate bars. The version that goes to the rest of the world is the same that goes to Swiss consumers. The version that goes to the US is highly sweetened, because the manufacturer believes that Americans aren’t sophisticated enough to appreciate the subtle tastes of their product.

107

Sigh… is there ANY country besides the United States in which so many people are so eager to put down their own country? Anyplace else where so many people are so quick to say, “Waaah! All those other countries are so much more sophisticated than us!! Why can’t be be like them?”

Look, I KNOW there are all sorts of things to admire in the cultures (both high and low) of other countries. But elitist Americans should stop looking at the best of what Europe has to offer, comparing it to the worst of what America has, and deciding that America just doesn’t measure up.

Yes, the best of French cuisine is wonderful… but you know what? McDonald’s does HUGE business in France, and it ain’t just American tourists who are eating those Royales with cheese.

Yes, there are some wonderful small films that come out of Ireland… but guess what? Irish kids line up to see “Jurassic Park” and all the usual mainstream Hollywood crap, just like American kids.

If you’ve convinced yourself that the best of the best in European culture is the norm over there, you’re ridiculously wrong. Most popular culture is crap, here AND abroad.

There’s NOPLACE where atonal abums go multiplatinum. There’s NOPLACE where depressing, Bergmanesque art films rake in $200 million.

**

That said…

“Dumbing down” has absolutely NOTHING to do with the United States per se.

It has to do with the fundamental question “Do we want to sell our product to a small number of highly knowledgeable, highly appreciative people who understand and love what we’re doing? Or do we want to make a lot more money by appealing to a much larger group?”

This dilemma comes up whether you’re trying to sell a TV show or Indian food or anything else.

If you’re content to have a tiny, appreciative audience, you can make your TV show or movie as quirky and odd as you like. The tiny cult audience you get will adore it. But if you need more than a tiny cult audience, guess what? You’re going to have to find ways to expand your show’s appeal. MAYBE that means broader comedy. MAYBE that means fewer arcane references that only aficionados get. In any case, it’s likely to mean watering down some of the odder elements that make the show so appealing to the hardcore fan base. To THEM, any changes will seem like “dumbing down” at best (or sacrilege at worst).

Are there excellent, authentic Indian restaurants all over the USA? Sure, just as there are loads of “authentic” Mexican, Italian, French and ___ (fill in your favorite ethnicity). But those “authentic” restaurants are geared toward serving either

  1. actual members of the ethnic group in question, or
  2. adventurous foodies.

If those two groups alone can generate enough revenue, “authentic” ethnic restaurants can thrive. On the other hand, if the proprietor wants to attract a much larger clientele, he’s going to have to appeal to the tastes of the majority. That may mean making his food less spicy, less “real,” and less appealing to the people who loved what he was doing before.

The same hold true in the arts, ALL arts. There’s always a tradeoff between popularity and artistic integrity.

108

[QUOTE=astorian]
Sigh… is there ANY country besides the United States in which so many people are so eager to put down their own country?
[/QUOTE]
Oh yes. We’re much worse.

109

[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]

Same thing for Lexus and Infiniti. For Lexus, only the ES is essentially a Camry. All their other cars(I think one of the SUVs is also badge engineered, but SUVs suck so who cares) are unique to Lexus and not related to any lower end Toyota offerings. In Japan/EU, they may have been sold under the Toyota badge, but they were DIFFERENT cars. Infiniti similarly shares nothing with Nissan’s north American lineup other than the QX and Armarda truck based SUVs.

[/quote]

Not quite. The former Lexus SC 300 was a rebadged Toyota Soarer, the only real differences being switching locations for the steering wheel and lack of a digital instrument cluster for the U.S. market. Also, the LS 400 is a close cousin of the Toyota Soarer. Toyota was always capable of making high-end luxury cars by the time the 1980’s came along. They just didn’t think Americans would believe them, so they created another luxurious-sounding brand name with a luxurious-looking dealership.

Ford did it too. Anyone remember the Merkur XRT4i and the Scorpio? Everyone else knows it as the Ford Sierra and Ford Scorpio, but here it was marketted as a high end high performance German import.

They weren’t supposed to. Taking a common drivetrain and bolting on different bodies like VW does with their Audi, SKODA, and SEAT brands was not always a common practice among all auto manufacturers.

Can’t disagree here. This kind of marketting results in product lines which are essentially redundant. Hence one of the reasons why they canned Oldsmobile.

At the same time, it ticks me off when a company such as Ford or Chrysler claim they don’t offer a certain model or optional features. Say a minivan with a manual transmission or rear fog lights when by looking at their foreign websites it’s painfully clear that they do. BMW is guilty as hell too (the underseat first aid kit is a reasonably well known example among BMW owners). You end up with consumers having to “fix” their cars to put back the features they’re supposed to have which are missing. The automakers claim it has to do with “regional marketting variations”. I think that’s just a fancy way of saying “dumbing down for the local market”.

110

[QUOTE=Long Time First Time]
Nationally distributed, my ass.

I love that beer and look for it everywhere. I have never seen it outside of Texas. If you know some place in Indiana that sells it, I’d love to hear of it.
[/QUOTE]

I saw it at a store called Total wine last week in VA.

111

[QUOTE=GorillaMan]
There’s also an area of Ipswich called
[/QUOTE]

Ipswich England? Ipswich, Massachusetts? New Ipswich, New Hampshire? :smiley:

(I grew up in the Massachusetts one… couldn’t wait to get out! But I’d love to visit the one across the pond.)

[QUOTE=Princhester]
Is it not true that 'Mericans have a comparatively low per capita rate of having and using a passports?
[/QUOTE]

I’d say it’s more an issue of not needing one for most of the travel that Americans have available in a relatively short distance. Until recently, I didn’t need a passport to go to Canada, nor to Mexico, or many parts of the Caribbean islands. To go to Europe is a major undertaking, and of course, you’d need one for that.

On the manual/automatic transmission issue, in my case, automatic transmissions cost more (even if they are now matching efficiencies), and are boring to drive… And, if you look hard enough, you can find a manual rental, though I’ll agree they aren’t very common.

112

[QUOTE=butler1850]
I grew up in the Massachusetts one… couldn’t wait to get out! But I’d love to visit the one across the pond.
[/quote]

I’m sure plenty of people here would happily swap :wink: (Of course, I live in a nice town just outside, naturally :smiley: )

This is very true. The equivalent would be for much of Europe to function as one common travel area, even more so than under the Schengen treaty, and most Brits wouldn’t need a passport for most travel.

113

The Soarer name was never used outside Japan, and Soarer models prior to 1991 were only sold in the domestic market (the Lexus SC being the “third generation” Soarer) so unless you’re in Japan, saying the SC300 is a “rebadge” is meaningless. In addition, later models of the Soarer came with drivetrain options not available in the US market model, notably the single turbo 1JZ-GTE engine. I’m not sure what you mean about the LS400/Toyota Celsior being related to the Soarer/SC, they have nothing in common other than the engine AFAIK, it was designed specifically for Lexus and only released in Japan as the Celsior after it was introduced in the US.

114

[QUOTE=ntcrawler]
… They just didn’t think Americans would believe them…
[/QUOTE]

We probably wouldn’t have. I remember the first time I heard about a friend of mine buying a Mitsubishi car. I though “Why in the world would anybody buy a car from a VCR company?” That would be like buying a Nike toaster. Is it just a cultural difference? Are am I dumb to be wary about buying a nice pair of Hewlett-Packard pants?

115

On the one hand, the American version of “The Office” is so hamhanded and simpleminded that I can only be embarrassed. It’s the same litany of quick and oh-so-simple gags that our other television comedies offer. The British version of the same show - jeez, it doesn’t even sound right to say that - was priceless. That scene where Tim turns off the microphone is the most moving thing I’ve ever seen on the tube, and I had to watch it over about 5 times on DVD to make out that he says, “She said no, by the way” afterwards.

But, then, on the other hand, I don’t think any of the more-than-dozen Americans who have worked on the Moon needed it dumbed down for them. Though, that was so many decades ago, who can remember? I’d like to hear them compare notes with non-Americans who visit that cold and distant world. Here’s hoping that some do so before the Americans have all died of old age.

Yes, it’s a real head-scratcher, this one.

116

[QUOTE=astorian]
Sigh… is there ANY country besides the United States in which so many people are so eager to put down their own country? Anyplace else where so many people are so quick to say, “Waaah! All those other countries are so much more sophisticated than us!! Why can’t be be like them?”
[/QUOTE]

Bit of a hijack here, but…

If anything, you’ve got this backwards. A tiny fraction of Americans bash the country; the vast majority genuinely believe this is “the greatest country on earth”.

You don’t go anywhere else and see national flags displayed so prominently. Nowhere. If I went to buy a car in Britain and saw a Union Jack or St. George’s Cross flying, I’d wonder who died or whether the Argentines had invaded the Falklands again.

Not to mention the ubiquity of the flag as a motif on clothing; non-Merkins don’t wear their flags at all, except on national-team sports uniforms.

117

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Bit of a hijack here, but…

If anything, you’ve got this backwards. A tiny fraction of Americans bash the country; the vast majority genuinely believe this is “the greatest country on earth”.

You don’t go anywhere else and see national flags displayed so prominently. Nowhere.
[/QUOTE]

A bit of a hijack, but I’ll say Canada. I’ve seen far more display patriotism than in the US – flag display, clothing reasserting national identity (Roots Canada, etc), businesses named “Canadian [something]”, and so on – than south of the border. There’s also more incorporation of the national symbol, the maple leaf, into corporate logos and other items than I’ve seen with any US national symbols (stars, eagles, etc).

I really see far more of our countrymen people putting down all things American, as astorian describes, than evidence of the WOO USA NUMBER ONE!!! crowd. Another example: if you want to boost the sales of anything in the US, just slap “Euro” somewhere in the name, and watch it fly off the shelves.

118

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Not to mention the ubiquity of the flag as a motif on clothing; non-Merkins don’t wear their flags at all, except on national-team sports uniforms.
[/QUOTE]
Well, there’s the little matter of Geri Haliwell’s minidress and panties… and the roofs of Mini Coopers.

119

[QUOTE=elmwood]
A bit of a hijack, but I’ll say Canada. I’ve seen far more display patriotism than in the US – flag display, clothing reasserting national identity (Roots Canada, etc), businesses named “Canadian [something]”, and so on – than south of the border. There’s also more incorporation of the national symbol, the maple leaf, into corporate logos and other items than I’ve seen with any US national symbols (stars, eagles, etc).
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure i’d agree that the volume of such stuff is higher in Canada.

But even if it is, in my experience Canadians tend to take their patriotism far less seriously than Americans. There’s much more tongue-in-cheek or self-deprecation in Canadian nationalism than there is in the United States.

120

[QUOTE=mhendo]
I’m not sure i’d agree that the volume of such stuff is higher in Canada.

But even if it is, in my experience Canadians tend to take their patriotism far less seriously than Americans. There’s much more tongue-in-cheek or self-deprecation in Canadian nationalism than there is in the United States.
[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much the truth. Yes, Canadian flags and maple leaves abound, but it’s taken nowhere near as seriously as in the US. The flag and national symbols are not sacred (the flag is left out overnight? Whoopee. The flag touched the ground? Meh. Someone wants to burn the flag? So what?), and many times, are used more for decoration than as a symbol of patriotism. The used car lot that has maple leaf banners on every light standard is trying to get your attention, not display its patriotism. Most Canadians are proud to be Canadian, but they don’t see the need (hell, they don’t see the sense) in treating national symbols as religious icons to be revered. For decoration, to attract attention, or to set themselves apart from Americans, yes; but for patriotic purposes? No.