Are today's college kids getting stupider?

In My Humble Opinion
1

No, I don’t mean to insult an entire age category, but I wanted to hear if anyone had opinions on a matter my wife has recently encountered. Mrs. D has taught Business Law at the local community college for the past 15 years or so. Over the past couple of years she has been getting increasingly distraught over the high percentage of students who are failing horribly in her classes.

Not all of them, of course. In every class she has a small number of students who are trying hard and seem to be getting the material. Then there is the bulk of the class which is pretty much going through the motions, doing a good enough job to get a B or C.

She is well aware that a community college is not going to attract the best and the brightest. There have always been a percentage of kids who are enrolled primarily to remain covered by their parents’ insurance.

But there seems to be an increasing portion of her classes - as high as a 3d or 1/2 - who get consistently failing grades. At times she will administer a test and the class average will be below 50%.

She was getting down on herself, wondering if she had “lost” her ability to teach. Figuring it was her fault that the students weren’t getting it. But last night her department had their annual meeting, and it was clear that EVERY teacher in the department had similar experiences. Large portions of each of their classes were made up of kids who either made no effort or were incapable of learning the material.

For her part my wife blames the recent “Whole Language” trend in elementary schooling, which she suspects created a generation that is severely lacking in comprehension and expression skills. But that is just her seat of the pants analysis.

Have any of you experienced a similar increase in the number of young adults who simply don’t “get it?” If so, any thoughts as to what you attribute it to?

2

I wouldn’t say that college kids are getting stupider, but I think their motivations are different.

Too many kids are in college because of parental and social pressure; college is simply a means to an end for them, with the end being a decent job in some field where they can make a lot of money right out of school. They’re not interested in an education for its own sake, so they regard required courses as a waste of time. And since the piece of paper is all that matters to them, they don’t care about doing well in anything else; as long as they get their passing grade, that’s okay with them.

Robin

3

[QUOTE=MsRobyn]
… as long as they get their passing grade, that’s okay with them.
[/QUOTE]

Yea, but that’s the point. These kids are further out of competition than the Cubs in August! We’re not talking about passing with a low C or D. We’re talking about scoring less than 50% on a multiple choice test where the teacher intentionally and explicitly gave them the questions and answers during the class before the test! Or where she allowed them to do it open book and open note. Or take home. She has tried every method she can come up with to make the tests easier and easier, and the kids keep submarining her lowest expectations.

She has stopped giving any type of essay tests or assignments, because she is unable to decipher what the hell a good percentage of the handed in assignments are trying to say - can’t even get to the stage of deciding whether it is right or wrong.

4

I think the more distant your generation is from the current one, the distant it is culturally. I am more conversant on things involving the fifties, sixties, and seventies than my nieces and nephews. I know “Aquarius/Let the Sunshine In” was the number one song in 1969. I know all the words to the “Pledge of Allegiance”. I even know what Brian’s Song is.
Then again, I couldn’t tell you last year’s number one song was, don’t know how to operate a cell phone and have never been to myspace.

5

Except I don’t think a college degree is good for a high-paying job right out of school unless we’re talking engineering or a finance undergrad degree from UPenn or something. Most of the people I know with undergrad degrees (only) started out as admin assistants and worked their way up the ladder. Most of the kids I know who are using education to get high paying careers are those that go on to professional grad schools.

As to the OP, I don’t know. It seems to me that getting into college is getting tougher and tougher-maybe there is a shift in CCs and kids that would use them to fill pre-reqs and then transfer out to 4 year universities are willing to take on undergrad debt right out of high school in order to ensure they make it in. I know when I went to college ten years ago people were still pretty leery of a lot of undergrad debt. Now a 100K to get your Bates College or Georgetown degree seems to be par for the course.

6

[QUOTE=anu-la1979]
As to the OP, I don’t know. It seems to me that getting into college is getting tougher and tougher-maybe there is a shift in CCs and kids that would use them to fill pre-reqs and then transfer out to 4 year universities are willing to take on undergrad debt right out of high school in order to ensure they make it in.
[/QUOTE]

A good number of the low performers in her class are recent flunk-outs from the nearest branch of the local state U. So they already failed to make it at a 4-year school, and now they are in the process of failing at a 2-year school. Makes me wonder what in the hell these kids expect someone to pay them to do when they stop going to school.

7

College student checking in.

Personally, I enjoy school. Yeah, I have hated a few of my classes and just tried to get through them, but overall I like learning. I am really interested in my major (just changed it after some soul seaching and a revelation) and I enjoy the classes.

I seem to be in the minority.

Most kids I know are just trying to get by, get their degree. College is just a time to act stupid. Drink too much. Try and get laid (girls too). They all think a diploma automatically means $50,000/year a year out. I still don’t understand the kids who just fail classes that aren’t made to be difficult - too lazy I guess. I don’t even know why some kids are here, their parents must have pressured them because they don’t give a shit about any of it. Never come to class. Don’t worry about missing exams. If I missed an exam on accident, I’d FREAK OUT. I always worry about sleeping through a final. Some kids just don’t care. Which I don’t understand. I want a PhD someday. Some people can’t muster the effort to make it through undergrad at a state school. And community colleges are cool - same classes without 500 people in them! And cheaper. I took econ at summer school at one this past summer. I got a D in the class at my uni, a class of 500 people. My summer class had 25 people and a teacher who actually taught. Got an A+ and actually learned some stuff. Maybe it’s just a lot of young people these days expect everything to be handed to them if they just go through the motions?

8

I just think that there are more opportunities to go to school, and therefore more kids are going. This of course increases the number of stupid kids, and probably the percentage. Especially in community college, but also in some of the less prestigious state universities as well. I doubt Harvard and MIT are having this problem.

9

I think you’d have to be close to mental death to flunk out of the Illinois state school system*. There are hidey-holes for slackers everywhere. The bars in Chambana would not make nearly as much money and still have loads of idiots graduating if there weren’t.

*Before everyone jumps on me, I myself am a graduate of the Illinois public university system and am speaking from experience.

I have no answers for you then Dinsdale. I am shocked that one can fail out of a U of I or ISU. That would take a level of irresponsibility I don’t want to contemplate.

10

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
A good number of the low performers in her class are recent flunk-outs from the nearest branch of the local state U. So they already failed to make it at a 4-year school, and now they are in the process of failing at a 2-year school. Makes me wonder what in the hell these kids expect someone to pay them to do when they stop going to school.
[/QUOTE]

How does she know that? Over half the kids that are flunking her class also flunked out at a 4 year school? I’m not doubting you, I’m just really curious. Are they mostly older students? Yikes! It’d be interesting to know more about them.

Is there a pre-requisite for business law? What’s their major? It does sound pretty horrible and I can just imagine how frustrating it must be for your wife.

11

I have noticed this as a fellow student. I think this is due to several factors.

I can’t find a cite online right now, but I have read that modern college students go for different reasons than the previous generation. In the 60s and 70s, most college students listed “becoming fulfilled as a person” (or something along those lines) as their reason for attending. “Getting a better job” is now listed as a top reason. Furthermore, college was not expected but now it is basically a requirement. A greater percentage of people now attend college then ever before.

I’ve also noticed more pressures on teachers to give their students higher grades than they deserve. The students take advantage of this and will contest their grades and even threaten to sue professors/universities if they don’t get the grades they think they deserve. Some of the professors don’t like dealing with this hassle so they purposely make their tests easy or give extra credit.

A community college has a special set of problems. I’ve noticed that the education can vary widely depending on the type of teacher you have or the department you are in. At my college, the bio department is incredibly competitive. It is designed to be an alternative to the local UC which is well known for its bio department so it is very good and most of my bio classmates are pre-med/pre-pharmacy students who take their schooling and their grades very seriously. On the other hand, I have had some teachers here who teach below a high school level. I have a professor who is fresh out of school and can not teach worth a damn. You just have to memorize the key words from her books and you get As on all her tests. A lot of students are still failing her tests though because of the ample extra credit she offers. She offers so much extra credit that I could’ve failed the last two tests and still received an A plus in her class as long as I did all the extra credit. With fellow professors like these, the good professors have a difficult time because they get students who are used to community college being insanely easy rather than equivalent to a UC like it should be out here. I’ve learned what professors are easy and which ones give a good education and now I only sign up for classes from professors that will actually teach me.

A good percentage of students at community colleges are only there because their parents are making them go. I don’t know if this is typical around the country, but I do know at my college, a lot of students will admit that they are attending only because their parents will stop funding their activities if they stop attending college. They only have to pass to keep their parent’s money flowing.

Finally, you can always retake classes that you fail. If your parents are paying for your partying funds and drug money why would you want to cut your education short? Once you get out of school, you will have to get a real job. If you fail a class you can always retake it again and then you have all the notes and should be able to get a C easily. Some will purposely fail in order to avoid being sent out in the work force.

12

There have always been poor students and slackers but it is harder to see when you hang out with them and hear it from their side rather than seeing it through a professor’s eyes. By nearly any empirical measure, students are better and more qualified today than they have ever been. Standardized tests including IQ tests just go up and up (the Flynn Effect) making people from past decades look like a bunch of mouth-breathing retards. The competitive schools have gotten more competitive almost to the point of ridiculousness.

In all due respect, I don’t think you can judge today’s students as a whole by those at community colleges. students there aren’t going to be the strongest as a whole by a long shot. The community college population as a whole or maybe just at that one may have shifted over time but that tells us nothing about the people at 4 year schools and even less about the ones at competitive schools.

13

[QUOTE=Dinsdale]

Not all of them, of course. In every class she has a small number of students who are trying hard and seem to be getting the material. Then there is the bulk of the class which is pretty much going through the motions, doing a good enough job to get a B or C.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t see anything wrong with getting a B, or even a C.

I know plenty of people who are very smart but fall into that category.

For many of these students, business law may not be the only class they’re taking this semester. They may be juggling 4-5 other classes, maybe a part time job or two, or maybe involved in student organizations. Some may even be adults who are married and/or have children and try to keep up a home life.

A’s aren’t everything.

14

[QUOTE=Caridwen]
How does she know that? Over half the kids that are flunking her class also flunked out at a 4 year school? I’m not doubting you, I’m just really curious. Are they mostly older students? …
Is there a pre-requisite for business law? What’s their major?
[/QUOTE]

The make-up of her classes varies significantly depending on the session. (Up until this year they taught by quarters - they just switched to semesters.)

At the beginning of each semester she asks her students to voluntarily complete a notecard with some info. She asks why they are in class, because to whatever extent reasonably possible she will try to structure her material, examples, and such depending on the class make-up. She also asks them things like what TV they watch and what music they listen to, so she can give examples and analogies that make sense to them. And a good number of students have no problem at all stating that they are going to the CC because they flunked out of the nearest state college (Northern).

During summer session, it seems like a lot of her students are from Northern, making up gen ed requirements. Seems like a lot of accounting majors. Those summer kids don’t seem to care much, but at least they are able to sleepwalk their way to passing grades.

Some of her students are past normal college age. Seemed especially true during the winter quarter. They seem to work harder and do better as a whole. Our thought is because they don’t have to be there, and are generally paying their own way, trying to get something out of it.

She was observing that there is no pre-req for the business law courses (although one of the courses she teaches is a pre-req for another). Apparently some of the classes at her school do have certain English pre-reqs. She was thinking about mentioning that at the meeting last night.

It used to be that her biggest difficulty was with the English as second language students, but she has gotten very accomplished at sussing their unique approach to our language. It used to be when she got to a hard-to-comprehend essay, she could reliably predict that it came from an ESL student. But these days, it is just as likely that the incomprehensible product came from a native born and taught English speaker.

A significant contributor to the problem is that the school has a very “customer-oriented” outlook - they face certain funding issues such that they routinely cut resources available to the staff, and have a great interest in retaining paying customers in the seats - whatever their effort and ability (or lack thereof.)

15

But Shag, she has been encountering a pretty consistent sample - students at the same CC taking the same courses over a 15 year period. In the mind of her and her colleagues, a greater percentage of the students are doing far worse today than ever before.

I guess one possibility is that there might be more educational opportunities available to the more capable students, such that the CC is ending up with more and more of the dregs. Anyone aware of any studies to bear that out?

Another possibility was what my wife feared - that she was getting burned out, or too out of touch with young people. But if that is the case, then her entire department is experiencing the same.

Or perhaps the kids of today are somehow qualitatively different such that the methods of instruction that worked in past years are no longer effective. I find that hard to believe, but I can imagine it as a possibility.

In my eyes, the most likely possibility seems to be that a greater percentage of the students she encounters today just don’t give a crap. And as I said before, I really wonder what they imagine doing in what I perceive as an increasingly competitive job market.

Boscibo - I wasn’t saying there is anything wrong with Bs or Cs. I was trying to convey that significant portions of the classes are failing - getting less than 50% on every assignment, failing to grasp even the most basic concepts, challenging straightforward questions as being “trick questions” …

And in the end, business law shouldn’t be expected to be a complete cakewalk. You can only dumb it down so much before you are no longer teaching the material - as well as doing a disservice to the kids who are interested, capable, and doing the work.

16

[QUOTE=anu-la1979]
Except I don’t think a college degree is good for a high-paying job right out of school unless we’re talking engineering or a finance undergrad degree from UPenn or something. Most of the people I know with undergrad degrees (only) started out as admin assistants and worked their way up the ladder. Most of the kids I know who are using education to get high paying careers are those that go on to professional grad schools.

[/QUOTE]

Public relations falls into this category, too; I know PR students who got jobs making close to 40K out of undergrad. But then, I also have classmates who have bachelor’s degrees who earn a whopping eight bucks an hour working for small-market TV stations.

I know it’s not necessarily the reality, but that seems to be the expectation; that good-paying jobs will be theirs if they just get that magic piece of paper. I know this because I sit in three classes with students from this category. The available jobs just weren’t quite what they wanted, so they go to grad school in the hope that they can at least get management jobs.

Dinsdale, ISTM that a lot of these “students” are looking for an easy grade and not finding it. Has Mrs. Dinsdale had problems with students making noise over their grades?

Robin

17

I’m a 40 year old accounting major at a low tier state school. My first college experience was at two good state Universitys (Iowa and Minnesota). I can’t say if its “kids today” or the difference in schools but:

Some students in my current classes believe paying tuition has entitled them to a passing grade. They seem to believe it is the instructors job to grant them knowledge and this knowledge will come to them despite not paying attention in class or reading the material. They talk of being “customers” of the school and “this school won’t get my tuition money if I don’t get a B in this course.”

Students in my current classes are often working a full time job, trying to make ends meet, have families - AND are taking credits. On occation, the instructors expectations for the amount of time a student can put in have been out of whack. Students who are as overextended as some of these people can’t expect good grades.

Some students believe that the instructors will bail them out last minute with extra credit or something. And a LOT of instructors do. My current class is getting an extra 10 points on the final if you do one of the questions in advance.

A lot of students really don’t have ANY experience - common to college students all over. But the change over the years is that the students I’m in class with now are convinced they know it all - they are like teenager with their parents. Where the first time around we all seemed to know we were clueless.

18

[QUOTE=MsRobyn]
Has Mrs. Dinsdale had problems with students making noise over their grades?
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. Their apathy appears boundless.

19

One class is impossible to draw any conclusions from. It may simply be that the class your wife teaches is, for some economic or demographic or ssystemic reason, getting dumber students.

College students, and students at all grades, really, are about the same as they have always been.

20

[QUOTE=RickJay]
One class is impossible to draw any conclusions from. It may simply be that the class your wife teaches is, for some economic or demographic or ssystemic reason, getting dumber students.

College students, and students at all grades, really, are about the same as they have always been.
[/QUOTE]

If my wife’s impression is based upon an insufficient sample, what exactly is the basis for your assertion?