Are Transsexuals Mentally Ill?

[DocCathode]

@elucidator

In the statement, “I am a woman trapped in the body of a man”, who or what is the “I”? Doesn’t the statement imply a separate but indwelling identity? A “soul”, then?

No.

There is no need to bring metaphysics into this. The I you speak of resides in the brain- a brain at odds with chromosomes and genitalia.

[Doctor_Why]

@Irishman

Perhaps it is, but there isn’t an easy way to adjust the chemistry back into balance, because we cannot yet identify what is out of balance?

@Powers

Perhaps it is. But we do not have effective chemical treatments available.

We “assume” the mental one is right because a) we can change the physical more effectively than we can change the mental, and b) because one’s mental state is a key component of self-perception. In most cases, someone who views himself as a man would not want to be made to view himself as a woman. It would completely change the way he see himself, and probably would make him feel like he was discarding a part of himself. Conversely, such people tend to see sex reassignment surgery as corrective.

With depression, there is nothing physical to change; the only way to treat it is by changing the way someone thinks – either via therapy or chemistry.
Powers &8^]

I’m not opposed to physical treatments, and I understand that we don’t have any other options at the moment; It just seemed that it was being implied that this was a physical issue because we don’t have therapy or chemical treatments. I don’t know too much about medicine, though, and maybe that does make it a de facto physical issue.

That’s a good point about self-perception, and it cuts straight to the part that I find interesting. With disorders that we do have therapeutic and chemical treatments for, it seems standard to accept that the patient’s perception is not normal and needs to be corrected. That doesn’t appear to be the case here, and I find that intriguing.

[Horatio_Hellpop]

@Ruby_Slippers

I’d like to add to Una’s response to this point. I’ve attended quite a few Star Trek conventions and one of the things I’ve noticed is that the con audiences seem to have a much higher percentage than the population at large of folks I would characterize as “outcasts.” Many are severely overweight, socially maladapted, or at least just generally geeky. (I’m not casting aspersions. I most definitely count myself in this group.) Sci fi cons appeal to us on a couple of different levels – they are set in a different reality, not the one that judges us and finds us wanting, and thus, as mostly outcasts from the rest of society, we tend to be more accepting of each other’s flaws, issues, and shortcomings.

Oh, agreed. My observations about other undercaste-types need to be qualified with “…says the fat white guy who reads comic books.”

[Una_Persson]

@Doctor_Why

I’m not opposed to physical treatments, and I understand that we don’t have any other options at the moment; It just seemed that it was being implied that this was a physical issue because we don’t have therapy or chemical treatments. I don’t know too much about medicine, though, and maybe that does make it a de facto physical issue.

That’s a good point about self-perception, and it cuts straight to the part that I find interesting. With disorders that we do have therapeutic and chemical treatments for, it seems standard to accept that the patient’s perception is not normal and needs to be corrected. That doesn’t appear to be the case here, and I find that intriguing.

Part of the problem is that transsexuals generally cannot be “cured” by psychotherapy or antidepressants or other medication. In the same manner that being lesbian or gay cannot be “cured.”

Now it is true in all the aforementioned cases there will be some people who may be close enough to straight or cisgendered on the respective sexual preference and gender spectrums that they can cope and lead a “normal” life. But generally speaking, the efficacy of psychotherapy for transsexuals is via coping strategies, not a cure. I mean, it filters down like this:

• Start with a group of transgendered persons of size A.

• Some portion of A are close enough to central on the gender spectrum that they can cope, if they want to, with forcing their birth and mental genders to be the same. call that group “B”. This group seems to be very small.

• Of the remaining group (A-B), some portion, called C, will be able to cope with their transsexuality via counseling, group therapy, and coping strategies. This group is modest in size.

• Of the remaining group (A-B-C), some portion, called D, will be able to cope with their transsexuality via hormone treatments. In some cases only anti-androgens are used. In other cases low-dose estrogen is used. But in most cases, anti-androgens and high-dose estrogen is used. This group is fairly large in size, I believe it is the largest group.

• Of the remaining group, (A-B-C-D), some portion, called E, will be able to cope with their transsexuality via SRS. This group is also fairly large in size.

• Finally, a small number of the remaining group (A-B-C-D-E), called F, will still be unable to cope, and will require some serious psychological intervention. This group appears to be very small.

If one wanted to be as cautious as possible, proceeding to anti-androgens alone appears to be a fairly “safe” process. While anti-androgens may lead to gynecomastia and could result in prostate disorders, they will not radically change the body like high-dose estrogen will. And some transsexuals are quite happy on anti-androgens alone. The rest…need to walk further down that hard road.

[Measure_for_Measure]

@grude

Anyone ever find it odd that at least in the USA at the same time a lot of the public freaks out at the idea of genital surgery, they also would wade through a lake of lava to make sure their male infant is circumcised?

No not at all. I find it odd that anybody wouldn’t freak at least a little about genital mutilation (sorry, I don’t know the proper word that encompasses turning a penis inside out but that sets aside the rather small and hygienic aspect of snipping an infant’s foreskin). Don’t get me wrong: I assume that the transgendered don’t have recreational sex re-assignment surgery, just as triple bypass patients don’t look forward to their ordeal. Surgery of all sorts is freaky, cock and ball surgery especially so.

Males also find the Candiru fish to be the stuff of nightmares and instinctively feel inclined to protect their groin when it is described.

@Una

If one wanted to be as cautious as possible, proceeding to anti-androgens alone appears to be a fairly “safe” process.

Do you have any anecdotal or scientific evidence on the share of transexuals who try hormone therapy and then give it up, reverting to group B or C? I’m thinking of those who do it out of preference rather than financing.

[vikinghorn6]

The answer to the question is simple, elegant, and carries the weight of law. Secular and religious law. And of course the bylaws of the medical profession. Yes, a transgendered person in any area of their journey are by definition mentally ill. We are now only speaking of those humans born XX or Xy as the vast majority of humans are. For the record we are aware that there are others who are born with conditions leaving them somewhere in between. Those who through no fault of their own, as accidents of birth, were given both sexual organs of each of the sexes. Leaving these people truly trapped and faced with certain choices, or non-choices to be made. But right here, right now, we are speaking of transponders. Who were given one body, male or female. One otherwise healthy body through which to go through life. There are some people, transponders , who are unhappy with their bodies sexual equipment, and subsequent hormones. They look like men, but feel like women in their hearts, and brains. The question was, is this way of feeling mentally ill or normal for certain people. The question clearly has an answer in the DSM IV. Which classifies this belief and thinking as a mental illness. There are those, to be sure, who will argue that the publication has been wrong before and could be again? I’ll save you the suspense they are right. It’s been wrong many times and no doubt will be again, just not today! Today, wanting to mutilate your body in order to match a misguided vision in your head of what you should look like is wrong. So wrong that it is a decease.I know, it’s not that simple. Michael Jackson had many mutilating surgeries to look more like the one gloved picture in his head. And so did his whole family evidently. I myself just spent $17500 getting my teeth capped to fool the world into thinking that I have young beautiful teeth. We all do it a bit. Rogaine, steroids, spin classes, botox, lasic surgery, face lifts, breast augmentations, it’s a 200 billion a year business. Making the best of what we have. But transgendered is different for one really big reason. The afore mentioned treatments are to accentuate, or make the best of what has been given to us naturally. Transgendered Fails the sanity tests because the sufferers wish to have a mulligan on their whole body. The want a do over with all new equipment. That's not just neurotic, not just vain, not just narcissistic, but crosses over to mentally I'll. But why? Scream the tree hugging,liberals? Because no matter what you do the change will never be complete. You can lop off body parts, add them, or reform them. And with a butt load of hormones you maybe can get to a passing familiarity to the sex you are going for. But no matter how many surgeries, no matter how many collagen shots, no matter how many make up tricks you learn, your chromosomes are fighting you and winning every single day. Chanell#5 doesn't change the XY chromosome pairs in every cell in your body. And one day, when there are no more surgeries, no more Botox shots, no more for hormones, you are still a man. The coroner will describe you as a post op woman, but a genetic man. Therefore he checks the male box. A whole life of pain, shame, surgeries, botox, collagen, waxings, and god knows what else, you are either a man or a woman, and you aren’t fooling a soul except for yourself. So IMHO if you have thoughts that make your appearance as a male or female repugnant to you. And you find it necessary to spend all of your time, money, and goodwill, getting your sexual assignment changed, cuz it doesn’t jive with your view of yourself. You have a mental illness and you should explore all the treatments avaiable in that vein before you begin lopping off body parts and going to silicone parties. Just my humble opinion.

[wanfuforever]

Greetings. I am a male in a relationship with a MtF transgender. We have been together for 12 years, so suffice it to say I have had more contact with the TG population than most. First, we have to understand what we are speaking of is a taboo in the West. It is a threat to “reality” as perceived by many, but part of the reason for science is to challenge our assumptions. What has been found is that the hypothalamus, which supports and drives the endocrine system (something quite important to sex and gender) has been shown to act as the gender TG’s feel they really are. In the end, what is in your brain trumps the body parts. Most people have mind-body agreement, but about one in thirty thousand do not. The problem is, because of societal pressures such as acceptance and “false positives” i.e. people that are more transvestites than transgender, it makes the understanding of the situation difficult. Most TG’s don’t want to be TG’s, and many take on (oh, we’ll keep this to MtF’s which seem to be the ones that grab attention) super masculine roles almost in the attempt to prove to themselves their own masculinity, but come to terms with themselves later in life though many admit to feeling “different” at an early age.
It always fascinates me that society acts as though the male gender is the default gender. I go to restaurants where the waitresses wear ties as part of their uniform and no one views it strange. A woman in a commercial can wear her husband’s clothes and it’s considered “cute” she’s thinking of her man. Men wearing feminine clothing is constantly used as a comic effect. It is my assertion that the hostility towards transgenders is twofold: xenophobia, and the fear of emasculation. See for reference http://www.gender.org/remember/about/core.html. The sad part is many men want to have sexual relations with TG’s, this just don’t want to be seen with one. I know escorts that make in two days what it takes me two weeks to make. People that make $600 then go to lunch. But the same people will slam TG’s to go along with the group rather than admit their attraction. It’s rarer to find me willing to state it publicly than to find transgenders themselves.
The “mental illness” portion is a bit loaded. It conjures people that do not function in society, have a complete lack of mores etc. and from first hand experience that is a perception that simply is not true. Is there something happening that is very rare in their brains? Yes. Is it something that is totally debilitating that should make people go on full panic alert? No- but that’s what is going to happen. We hold no illusions because it is a very tough pill to swallow. Of all things, gender should be simple and clear, right? Unfortunately, things are more muddled than we ever suspected.

[Doctor_Why]

@Una_Persson

Part of the problem is that transsexuals generally cannot be “cured” by psychotherapy or antidepressants or other medication. In the same manner that being lesbian or gay cannot be “cured.”

I get what you’re saying, but for the sake of argument, what’s the definition of “cured”? There are mental disorders that require constant medication for the rest of the patient’s life. Is that cured? What would it take for a transgendered person to be called cured?

Also, thanks for the breakdown. I guess what I really wonder about is whether we’ll be able to devise more effective treatments in the future and affect the respective size of those groups. I suppose the question of whether this is a physical or mental problem can be revisited if we do.

I’m also wondering, what do we currently do for that last group who don’t even feel better after surgery?

[AHunter3]

Incidentally I just finished watching “Becoming Chaz”, the story of Sonny & Cher Bono’s kid’s transitional experience. It’s something you should all consider seeing.
What do people mean when they say “mentally ill”? If anyone in this thread who is responding “yeah they’re mentally ill” would care to elaborate, are you asserting that “holding this belief about themselves is a reliable indicator that there is a chemical or neurological brain dysfunction at the biological level”? (That is what psychiatry touts as the definition of “mental illness”) That doesn’t seem like a defensible hypothesis without a shitload of data that no one is citing but I’d like to hear your evidence on that.

Or perhaps you mean it metaphorically / less literally, e.g., “holding this belief about themselves means that the things they believe can be discredited as nutty thoughts”. If that’s what you mean, that doesn’t sound like legitimate discussion tactics to me. How is that different from “If you believe this, you are WRONG because that’s just so wrong it’s WRONG so you’re WRONG”?

[Broomstick]

One of the things I find irritating in such discussions as these are people like vikinghorn6 who seem almost gleeful to point out just how sick and delusional transsexuals are. Funny thing, though - I have never met a transsexual, in real life or on the internet, who ever denied the at-birth configuration of their genitalia, or had the notion that SRT would somehow change their chromosomes, or that it would perfectly replicate a particular gender’s body. In that sense, at least, they are NOT delusional. They are very aware that their physical bodies are NOT want their mental genders are, that is in fact the source of their distress.

@vikinghorn6

The answer to the question is simple, elegant, and carries the weight of law. Secular and religious law.

No, it doesn’t. First of all, religious law should only apply to practitioners of the particular religion. Imposing “religious law” on someone outside that religion is an affront to human rights and should be seen as so ridiculous as to cause laughing fits in those who have evolved beyond mystical superstition. Second, the secular law in a lot of places allow the legal change of gender on records for post-op transsexuals, up to an including amending birth certificates. Please correct your ignorance on these matters.

Yes, a transgendered person in any area of their journey are by definition mentally ill.

Strictly speaking, the psychiatric profession considers everyone mentally ill to one degree or another, or at least having the mental sniffles, as we all have hang-ups, issues, and petty delusions we live under. It’s a matter of degree, not a binary is/is not situation.

For that reason, the criteria for whether or not someone needs treatment isn’t “do they have a problem/delusion/issue?” but does it interfere with their ability to function in life? Some with a severe phobia in regards to flying in an airplane doesn’t require treatment unless that phobia in some way impairs their ability to function. If the person has no need or desire to fly somewhere then no treatment is necessary. On the other hand, someone who flies as a necessary part of their job might seek treatment for a mild anxiety about flying.

Given the extraordinarily high rate of self-harm and suicide among the transgendered, this would seem to be an area where treatment is needed. As already noted multiple times, our options are limited. We can’t change their brains/minds. We can change their bodies, albeit imperfectly. Right now, the question is does SRT actually improve their situations or not?

No one, including transsexuals, is denying that their situation is unusual or dysfunctional. No one is happy to be a transsexual. There really is something wrong. That’s why transsexuals seek treatment and often times spend enormous amounts of money on treatments they know won’t “cure” them, only, if they’re fortunate, relieve some of their suffering and distress.

Those who through no fault of their own, as accidents of birth, were given both sexual organs of each of the sexes.

That’s not how intersex conditions usually work. If you need to learn the facts about intersex conditions I suggest you start here

There are some people, transponders , who are unhappy with their bodies sexual equipment, and subsequent hormones. They look like men, but feel like women in their hearts, and brains. The question was, is this way of feeling mentally ill or normal for certain people.

First: these people are not “transponders”. They are “transsexual”. There is no need to make up new terminology when we have perfectly adequate words already. Particularly when “transponder” is already in use with a different meaning.

Second: no one is suggesting that transsexuality is “normal”. It’s not. Transsexual people are painfully aware they are not normal. The issue isn’t whether or not they’re normal, it’s what to do about their condition. I’d argue that their condition does not in any way justify the abuse they all too routinely suffer, it does not justify discrimination in housing, employment, or access to medical care, and it doesn’t justify other humans treating them as shit. They are human beings and deserve to be treated as such, and not as second-class (or worse) citizens.

I myself just spent $17500 getting my teeth capped to fool the world into thinking that I have young beautiful teeth. We all do it a bit. Rogaine, steroids, spin classes, botox, lasic surgery, face lifts, breast augmentations, it’s a $200 billion a year business. Making the best of what we have. But transgendered is different for one really big reason. The afore mentioned treatments are to accentuate, or make the best of what has been given to us naturally.

Incorrect again.

Yes, there are a lot of instances where dentistry and cosmetic surgery is used to enhance or alter rather than restore function, but BOTH of those categories of medicine originated in restoring function, not changing appearance. You might have gotten your teeth capped to make them more beautiful. A former co-worker of mine got hers capped to repair the damage done by an abusive former husband. I’ve known several people who got extensive dental work not for vanity but to repair the damage caused by accidents, by jaw cancer, and other things.

Steroids have a role in helping burn patients heal. Spin classes aren’t “fake”, they’re real exercise that really improve health. Botox is used to treat cerebral palsy and was originally approved to treat eyelid muscle spasms that caused functional blindness. The techniques used in face lifts were pioneered to treat burn victims and facial deformities. Breast implants are used to restore a more normal contour after cancer surgery. Everything you mention is used not just for vanity but also for real medical problems that cause real suffering.

So, once again, the situation is not as binary as some people would like. The categories smear together. The world is more complex than small minds would like.

Because no matter what you do the change will never be complete.

They know that.

But, by that rationale, we shouldn’t allow women who’ve undergone mastectomies to have breast reconstruction surgery because the new breasts will never be “complete”, they will always be obviously fake once the clothes come off, with visible scarring, in many cases with either no aureola or nipple (unless a crude approximation is tattooed on). They aren’t real, those women are just fooling themselves, and when they wear clothes they’re trying to deceive everyone else. We shouldn’t fix cleft palates because, you know, 80 years later when an autopsy is performed the person doing it will be able to see the surgical scars and know this person has lived a “lie” of having a normal, functional mouth all their life instead of an approximated restoration.

:rolleyes:

You can lop off body parts, add them, or reform them. And with a butt load of hormones you maybe can get to a passing familiarity to the sex you are going for.

Actually, for MtF these days they can be pretty damn convincing, even with their clothes off. Unless you’re routinely performing pelvic exams on your acquaintances and/or bed partners you’re not going to notice. I am certain, given human nature, there are people out there carrying speculums into their bedrooms for sex play but the average person isn’t looking that closely.

But no matter how many surgeries, no matter how many collagen shots, no matter how many make up tricks you learn, your chromosomes are fighting you and winning every single day.

This causes my mind to generate a puzzling image. Really? The chromosomes are “fighting”? The little Y’s stand up every morning and pummel the transsexual person and slap her around a bit before breakfast? What, exactly, do you mean by that?

The coroner will describe you as a post op woman, but a genetic man. Therefore he checks the male box.

Actually, there are many jurisdictions where a post-op transsexual really is legally a woman, and therefore the box will be marked “female” with a note of “post-op transsexual”.

When I worked at a clinic, way back in the dark ages of the late 20th Century, all of the MtF transsexual files were kept with the other women’s files, their records were marked as “female”, they used the female facilities when they need to pee or poo, they were addressed as women by the staff, and the only time it came up was either during gynecological exams or when asked “when was the last time you menstruated?”, the answer being “I don’t, being a transsexual”.

Yes, some medical people - far too many if you ask me - will snigger in private at the sad transsexuals under their care, but it would HIGHLY unusual for medical people to go around telling transsexuals they’re “really” this or that to their face. They may not agree with how it’s treated, but then, medical people face stuff far, far worse than what transsexuals do to their bodies. Genital surgery under a competent doctor is pretty damn tame compared to what some people will do in the way of self-harm. If you don’t know what I’m talking about consider yourself blessed.

A whole life of pain, shame, surgeries, botox, collagen, waxings, and god knows what else, you are either a man or a woman, and you aren’t fooling a soul except for yourself.

Actually, they’re NOT fooling themselves. I’ve yet to meet a transsexual who has forgotten that they were born a man (in the case of MtF) or a woman (for FtM). They remember every day when they take their required hormone pills. They remember because you don’t forget a miserable childhood/teen years. They’re not delusional in that sense, they really do know and understand they have extensively modified the body they were born with.

They DO “fool” a lot of other people. I’ve met transsexuals that completely pass as their chosen gender. I’m certain I’ve met a lot more of them who I didn’t know were such, because it’s not a topic for casual conversation. I’m certain that YOU have met women who were born in male bodies that you’ll never know underwent transition.

I think you, and a lot of other people, fear that you will be “fooled”. Sure, we all see the middle-aged transitioning men-into-women who, unfortunately, will always look like a man in a dress to one degree or another. You don’t see the one that transitioned in her early 20’s, before a lifetime of testosterone exposure, who looks more authentically female than many women who were born as women.

And, by the way, thanks for lumping in every woman who uses botox, collagen, waxes her legs, shaves, or “god knows what else” into the mix. You do realize you just called about 95% of women delusional and attempting to fool, right? What next? Make up is the practice of witchcraft? Or do you think the average woman doesn’t have body hair and doesn’t use make up?

You have a mental illness and you should explore all the treatments avaiable in that vein before you begin lopping off body parts and going to silicone parties. Just my humble opinion.

Again, you display your ignorance. Transsexuals are required to undergo years of therapy prior to an irreversible changes (assuming they go through legitimate medical channels - some don’t of course, but there are plenty of non-transsexual people who go to “silicone” parties". Such as this girl, Vanity Wonder)

You say they should “explore” all treatments available - how do you know they DON’T? Other than they make, in the end, a choice you find repugnant? No one gets SRT on a whim. No one. It’s a multi-year process at best.

[Una_Persson]

@Measure_for_Measure

Do you have any anecdotal or scientific evidence on the share of transexuals who try hormone therapy and then give it up, reverting to group B or C? I’m thinking of those who do it out of preference rather than financing.

I do, but I hesitated to post it because it was anecdote. Nonetheless, since you inquired, the only ones I knew who tried hormones and gave it up did so because they had serious, serious money problems, or one lady who gave up estrogen because it was produced from animal products, and being a vegan (I think) she didn’t feel good using it. Reading the literature I have read of transwomen who quit due to the pills making them ill, or causing extreme mood swings which were causing self-destructive behavior. The vast, vast majority who I know who have taken anti-androgens alone or anti-androgens and estrogen together report enormous improvements in mood, attitude, self-esteem, and overall general health. And I have read of folks online who report being on hormones for half a year or more, feeling that it wasn’t “right” for them, and quitting.

But if I had to place numbers on it…going from my gut, not citations…I’d say 95%+ are very happy and see serious improvements on hormones, and are still taking them.

[Una_Persson]

@Doctor_Why

I get what you’re saying, but for the sake of argument, what’s the definition of “cured”?

I mean “no longer suffers from gender dysphoria as a result of psychotherapy alone.” But note I originally put “cured” in quotes because I firmly believe that there isn’t really a “cure” which is needed in the first place.

I’m also wondering, what do we currently do for that last group who don’t even feel better after surgery?

From the literature I have reviewed, in most cases that group had an additional serious psychological problem which was undiagnosed, and probably should have had better screening before they got to that point. Also, we need to differentiate a couple of things in what I say - some women are unhappy even after full SRS because they still don’t pass, and are still ostracized and abused. It’s a painful fact that a 6’4" woman with size 15 shoes is going to immediately attract all eyes to her and lead to a lot of close scrutiny as far as “can she be…is that…OMG…” Whereas transsexuals who are, oh, for argument sake 5’5" and 130 pounds, with slight features and narrow limbs, were passing before without even trying. Whatever the case, that unhappiness is not necessarily a surgical failure, but it does represent the cold, hard fact that SRS and hormones will only change body morphology by so much. In an ideal society it wouldn’t freaking matter, but for the present…it’s an issue.

[kayT]

Just want to say thanks to Broomstick and Una Persson for the wonderful job of fighting ignorance here. I hope those who badly need this information are still reading.

[Powers]

@AHunter3

If anyone in this thread who is responding “yeah they’re mentally ill” would care to elaborate, are you asserting that “holding this belief about themselves is a reliable indicator that there is a chemical or neurological brain dysfunction at the biological level”? (That is what psychiatry touts as the definition of “mental illness”) That doesn’t seem like a defensible hypothesis without a shitload of data that no one is citing but I’d like to hear your evidence on that.

I don’t know how much evidence it needs… From observation, the vast, vast majority of people experience a perception of their own gender that matches that of their biological sex. For that to be reversed in one direction or the other does seem like it would have to result from an error or malfunction in the person’s development at some point in time. If it were otherwise, we would expect to see it much more often, wouldn’t we?
Powers &8^]

[Powers]

@Doctor_Why

That’s a good point about self-perception, and it cuts straight to the part that I find interesting. With disorders that we do have therapeutic and chemical treatments for, it seems standard to accept that the patient’s perception is not normal and needs to be corrected. That doesn’t appear to be the case here, and I find that intriguing.

Well, I think it’s simple… it’s because the “abnormality” is not abnormal at all, if you look at it in isolation. Someone who thinks she is a woman is not abnormal; over half the population of the planet thinks the same way. That is not an abnormality. The only thing that would be “abnormal” is if the woman’s chromosomes were not XX, but that in itself does not make her perception abnormal.

For a mental disorder like schizophrenia, on the other hand, we can see that it’s clear the person’s thought processes are not human-typical. His or her mind is operating in such a way as to be a danger to him- or herself and to others.
Powers &8^]

[Una_Persson]

@vikinghorn6

The answer to the question is simple, elegant, and carries the weight of law. Secular and religious law.

I’m less than impressed by what Bronze Age goatherders felt about transsexualism…which IIRC isn’t mentioned in the Bible at all, other than the admonition about wearing the wrong clothing.

But right here, right now, we are speaking of transponders. Who were given one body, male or female. One otherwise healthy body through which to go through life. There are some people, transponders , who are unhappy with their bodies sexual equipment, and subsequent hormones.

Transponders? Really? Forgive me if this implies a certain lack of attention to detail, lack of knowledge, or both.

There are those, to be sure, who will argue that the publication has been wrong before and could be again? I’ll save you the suspense they are right. It’s been wrong many times and no doubt will be again, just not today!

Well, you’ve convinced me. :dubious:

Chanell#5 doesn’t change the XY chromosome pairs in every cell in your body.

No, for that you need Prada. Ask me how I know…

The coroner will describe you as a post op woman, but a genetic man. Therefore he checks the male box.

Thankfully most folks don’t live their lives trying to look their best for their coroner. “Does my liver look fat on that stainless steel scale?”

You have a mental illness and you should explore all the treatments avaiable in that vein before you begin lopping off body parts and going to silicone parties. Just my humble opinion.

1. The most effective treatment for transsexuals at this time is partial or complete transition. This is the widely-accepted treatment by the medical establishment in many, if not most countries.

2. Describing the delicate and typically highly effective procedure of SRS as “lopping off body parts” pretty much is the code words for “transsexuals are icky.” And silicone parties have little to do with transsexualism. I don’t even know where to start with that one.

Really, Broomstick rebutted most of your points better than I.

[Doctor_Why]

Thank you, Una.

@Powers

Well, I think it’s simple… it’s because the “abnormality” is not abnormal at all, if you look at it in isolation. Someone who thinks she is a woman is not abnormal; over half the population of the planet thinks the same way. That is not an abnormality. The only thing that would be “abnormal” is if the woman’s chromosomes were not XX, but that in itself does not make her perception abnormal.

For a mental disorder like schizophrenia, on the other hand, we can see that it’s clear the person’s thought processes are not human-typical. His or her mind is operating in such a way as to be a danger to him- or herself and to others.
Powers &8^]

I sort of follow, but I still don’t get it. Surely it is normal to hear voices, but is abnormal to hear voices with no discernible source that tell you to perform violent acts?* To me it seems improper to look at the perception in isolation. To put it another way: It’s pretty normal to go skiing, right? But it wouldn’t be normal to think that you’re skiing when you’re sitting at your desk unless you’ve just eaten a peppermint patty.

*I know that schizophrenia is so much more than just auditory hallucinations and that they aren’t always violent.

[Mellifluous]

So, I have a question as a bisexual, intersex, transwoman. When do I have the right, assuming I had the audacity, to publically debate the validity of anyone else’s identity and their right to live their lives in an authentic manner? Now, with all due thanks to theose who are supportive and work hard to Quixotically bludgeon the trolls with things like facts, and I do thank you from the bottom of my heart, but placing us under some public microscope is unwanted, unnecessary, and insulting.

I have no idea what it is to be a straight male, despite the conditioning that my parents duly imposed upon me. I cannot presume to make decisions for or parse the motivations, intentions, and decisions of them, because I am not one. Nor can I assume that they are monolithic in any way. And yet they stand all around me, pointing, debating, insulting as if I were not there much the same as happens to women and people of colour and other so-called minorities.

Go away already! Debate things which pertain to you, and leave me and my ilk well out of your judgements. Now, try that with the rest of the world, and throw in some fuzzy-warm feelings of fairness and equality, and BOOM!, there’s world peace. Back to reality, though, for those who cannot believe in a reality any different than what they can experience, try seeing in the infra-red with your naked eye, try smelling a danish from a mile away - underwater, try unaided flight and navigation by feeling the subtle variations of our planet’s magnetic field. What? Can’t be done? No, because it is not within your ability to. I am not suggesting that we are different species, but that there are aspects of the greater reality that you can not experience, and may seem wildly impossible, but are nevertheless very real for those who do experience them. Just accept it and move on. Nobody wants to take YOUR penis off (but if you keep talking like a fool it might not sound like a bad idea), so be happy for that, and move on.

[DocCathode]

@kayT

Just want to say thanks to Broomstick and Una Persson for the wonderful job of fighting ignorance here. I hope those who badly need this information are still reading.

I second this.

[DocCathode]

If you woke up tomorrow in the body of the opposite sex, how would you feel? What would you be?

If I took your brain out and kept it alive in a jar, what would you be then?

If I removed all grey and white matter from your skull except for enough brain stem to keep your lungs breathing and your heart beating, would you be alive or dead?