Yeah, I disagree with Dante on that. He has his three headed Satan eternally gnawing on Brutus, Cassius, and Judas. Now, Judas is a no brainer, but Brutus? He was trying (unsuccesfully) to save the republic! (At least according to Plutarch.) I don’t see how that merits the depths of hell.
To answer the thread title - no, undercover cops are cops. As long as they stay cops there’s no betrayal.
The difference is that Donny Brasco stayed true to what he really was. He was a cop to start with and he was a cop all along. He was only pretending to be a criminal.
Gravano, on the other hand, was a real criminal. He voluntarily joined the mob with the intent of being part of it and committed real crimes. When he became a snitch it was a betrayal.
Of course, the mobsters who knew Brasco thought he was a genuine criminal like they were. They were wrong. When they found out they probably were disillusioned and had their feelings hurt. To balance that, they had caused much more suffering to many more people in their criminal careers. So I can live with their unhappiness.
All cops are “watched” by higher authority of some form or another.
While I’ve never worked “undercover” I know the mindset. There is an objective to it. There is nothing sinister about taking on a pretext life to bring horrible people to justice. Your inference that those that do it somehow have a mental flaw is insulting.
Of course, so did Gravano: he’s still a criminal, currently served a long jail sentence for drug trafficking. Much of his family is there with him. I think that makes it even tougher to put him and Pistone on the same level.
I get the sense that it’s because of the consequence of his crimes, but I’m not sure I buy it either. He also betrayed a friend, and maybe Dante didn’t believe Plutarch.
It really was a bad comparison on my part. Sammy is truly a psycopathic self serving murderous thug who should never see the sunshine again and I must confess that I was comparing him to a fictional Donny Brasco rather than a real life Joe Pistone. While I think Pistone did a great service to society (his ubiquitous incognito talk show appearances notwithstanding) I wonder about people who seem to enjoy it enough to do it for a living.
I don’t think there’s one answer for all UC’s. Since all humans have a dark side, I don’t doubt Undercover cops have a dark side too. And a few of them may indeed be psychopaths. Statisticly, that stands to reason. And I have no doubt that the position attracts some adrenalin junkies. I’m just objecting to the blanket staement “Undercover cops are psychopaths.”
It’s easy to say “betrayal is always wrong,” just like it’s easy to say “Killing is always wrong.” It’s also wrong. We allow killing when the alternative is worse and we allow betrayal when the alternative is worse. In certain circumstances killing and betrayal are not just not wrong, they are noble acts.
We would never have caught the Unabomber if he had not been “betrayed” by his own brother. I still remember how enraged I was listening to the traitorous buffoon G. Gordon Liddy denouncing the brother for this action.
:rolleyes:
And you honestly believe these criminals wouldn’t turn on their “friends” at the drop of a hat?
Please. Undercover cops are rooting out people who hurt and kill others. Lying and “betrayal” of these thugs is hardly as bad as murdering innocents in cold blood.
It’s late and I have to sign off but I sincerely apologise for insulting you. My op was presented as a question and in no way was intended to impugn those who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us. I was curious as to the mindset and motivation of those who go deep undercover and perhaps a little too influenced by the Sopranos double header that I watched. I didn’t really expect to find myself defending a particular position, or being up so late. Again, my apologies.
“Betrayal” is not really the proper word. The UC’s first loyalty (beyond his/her own safety) is that of the job assignment. True betrayal would be to turn crooked and not bust those you were sent in to get.
And even if you still consider it betrayal, I’m still confused about how that is the worse of all sins. Compared to what, please?
Let’s turn your S.O. argument around. What if you found out your S.O. had sexually assualted some children. Would you “betray” them? And would that be the worst of sins?
The undercover is simply playing a role. An actor with a badge, if you will. And so what if they enjoy the deception? The enjoyment comes from knowing what’s going to happen to the criminal piece of shit.
You beat me to the punch on Dante, but I should elaborate on your point: the ninth circle was for treacherous fraud, i.e. betrayal that brought about another’s destruction. Simply testifying against your friend so that he’s sent to jail or fined out the wazoo probably wouldn’t merit the ninth (getting him executed, however, might: see Judas).
Also, the very bottom of Dantean barrel is not betraying just friends, but betraying benefactors: the people that you went to for protection and/or guidance, and who helped you out. Dante was pretty big on ranking sins based on degree of choice or unnaturalness; even the ninth circle gets divided based on how free you were to choose to be with the one you destroyed: family, country, followers, benefactors.
Huh, I got the impression from movies and TV that undercover cops sometimes root out drug dealers and other nonviolent criminals. Is that not true?
This is probably a hijack, but I have a question for people who really feel this way: do you eat farm animals that were raised and cared for by humans? Do you see any conflict with your above-stated belief?
Sailboat
They do that too (although drug DEALERs, at least as far as drug cartels and such go, aren’t always non-violent. The mob moves a lot of drugs.). However, the example in the OP was about a cop infiltrating the mafia. The mafia aren’t what you’d call “non-violent.”
Undercover operations mainly target Jay Walking and Improper Lane Usage.
Many agencies now limit the time you can spend undercover, the FBI only allows agents to go under cover for 2 years at the most and have special training for that.
Most people have the ability to emotionally detatch themselves from the jobs they have to do. They are not all psychopaths or abnormal. It is normal and necessary.
I mean could we exist as a society if say the guy at the slaughter house started empathizing with the animals, if the funeral director mourned with every family that came through his door or if the local cop felt bad for every person they arrested? How could emergency and medical workers do their jobs unless they have that emotional detatchment?
We all do it to an extent, and considering how much distressing stimuli surrounds us it’s a damned good thing we can or we’d all be basket cases.
As for the undercover police in the cases mentioned (ignoring the Sopranoes) you notice that the UC officer eventualy begins to empathise with the people he’s with. That pretty much says they are normal and not pschologically abnormal robots who can not have normal relations.
They do not see it as betrayal but rather gathering information to be used to stop illegal activities. They aren’t out there trying to make friends just useful contacts.
In most cases, as others have stated, the “relationships” are no more than business ones (IE buying, selling, brokering).
Yeah, I’m staunchly in favor of the legalization of marijuania, especially medical marijuania, and maybe certain other drugs as well, but as things stand now the people in the drug buisiness are far from non-violent.
Here in D.C. we had a couple of gangs (they’re called “crews” here for some reason) that dealt nothing but pot. They were very violent, not just to rivals, but to witnessess and innocent bystanders as well. (Trained marksmen they were not.) Undercover cops were neccessary to bring them down as most witnesses were understandably too terrified to come forward.
I’m not even going to get into the famous crack wars of the '80’s, which gave D.C. the highest per capita homicide rate for American cities.
Lying but not pathological lying.
By the OP’s twisted logic, method actors are the worst of all; they immerse themselves in a character, lie convincingly, and do it for fame and fortune!
The horror, the horror!
How about the case of ex-FBI agent John Connoly? He is now awaiting trial in Miami, on 1st degree murder charges. While working as an informant in the Bulger Gang (Boston, Ma), he gave information to the gang leader (James Bulger), and was complicit in the murders of 23 people! Presently serving 11 years in Federal prison. I’d say this guy is a psychopath!
I’d say he’s a criminal. Psychopath is a very specific pathology that not even most murderers meet.