I just finished watching a Sopranos repeat where an FBI agent befriends Andrea, initializing a chain of events that eventually leads to her murder, sure it’s just TV drama but there’s an ugly underlying truth. My ex g/f is an American who kept in contact with a college sweetheart who works for the DEA in Miami. Neither one of us could fathom how a person could live with themselves doing what this person does. Whatever one’s moral position on drug use is (and he was a party guy who admitted to drug use in the line of duty) how on earth does one befriend and gain the confidence of people, babysit for their kids, go to ball games with them, all the while collecting information that will betray them? Sure it’s a necessary evil- like jailhouse snitches, and we need people like this to keep society safe but betrayal is still betrayal, the most egregious of sins. Why is Sammy “The Scum” Gravano a rat bastard while Donny Brasco is a hero? They’re both cut from the same cloth. From where I stand, if you can spend years infiltrating and ingratiating yourself with people, no matter how distasteful they may be, with no other purpose than betrayal, you are a psycopath. Necessary but inhuman. I could never be friends or trust such a person.
Wow…you really went off on a rant there. (And since when is betrayal the most egregious of sins? There’s probably a few more sins that might make the top ten over betrayal.)
On to your statements, the fact is that most undercover cops don’t get into a very close relationship with the people they are investigating. (Donnie Brasco’s(Joe Pistone) case and what you see on the Soprano’s notwithstanding) Its often just a very casual business type relationship, usually involved with whatever criminal enterprise they’re pursuing. They don’t hang out with their family or “babysit for their kids”. UC work is often similar to normal policework. Very rarely will the police go deep enough undercover to produce any close personal relationships that could be a friendship, let alone one that would result in a “betrayal”
Also with all that said, the fact still remains that most criminals, if cornered will not hestiate to betray you, if need be and when dealing with that, the police have to walk on a very thin moral tightrope to do the job they do.
How many people did Donny Brasco murder?
What is your definition of a psychopath?
Marc
No rant really. Betrayal is the worst of sins. The most personal thing we can give someone is our trust and to have that violated cuts to the core of who we are. Yeah some people are scum and would sell you out in a minute, but crime ain’t black and white. Bikers, mafiosi, etc, scum that they may be, can have redeeming qualities. They can have wives and children they love, parents they look after, and little league teams they coach. In order to take down these organisations law enforcement has to infiltrate them. The only way to do that is slowly gain their trust, working their way into their lives. Joe Pistone spent years doing that. It wasn’t just a business relationship. I’m glad someone is able to do that, I just think the people who are capable of that need to be watched, they’re lacking something human.
Psychopaths betray people in order to further their own ends. UC police “betray” criminals in order to serve the greater good.
Yeah, I agree. The DSM-IV of sociopath and the personality traits in LE undercover officers and interrogators are similiar. At least while on duty, all the off duty stuff of a sociopath does not apply to the average LE officer. Both are manipulative, decietful, controlling & untrustworthy.
http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html
Glibness and Superficial Charm - yes
Manipulative and Conning - yes
Grandiose Sense of Self - somewhat
Pathological Lying - yes
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - mostly, yes (on the job)
Incapacity for Love - no
Need for Stimulation - no
Callousness/Lack of Empathy - mostly, yes (on the job)
Everything else - no
However they are a necessary evil. On a 1-10 scale of evil criminals are probably an 8 while cops are a 3. So yeah, undercover & interrogator police show alot of traits associated with psychopaths and sociopaths (chronic lying, lack of empathy, needing to be in control, forming manipulative relationships, being unpredictable, etc). But they are a necessary evil.
Well…I meant to mention this earlier…but I somewhat agree with you about Pistone. That should have never ever happened. He got in way too deep and I think the movie did a good job of portraying the problems he had, to use your word , betraying his mafia targets.
However the fact remains, that 99% of all undercover work does not involve anywheres near that level of personal involvement with their targets. Like I said earlier, its generally just a business relationship. Whether you consider it a betrayal when you turn against a business associate is another matter.
NOW…if I were the FBI and DOJ running an investigation similar to the Donnie Brasco one, I could never ask an agent to get that close to his targets and then testify against them. It is too much to ask of any human being.
I appreciate the need for these people, what I’m sayinig is that anyone who can go deep undercover, not a simple sting op but deep undercover where they live the life with naturally suspicious people and convince them of their bona fides, don’t have a gift as much as they have a pathology. I’m glad there are people who can do that but personally I could never trust someone like that. How could you? Gaining trust and lying is what they do.
On another note a good book on undercover work is Under and Alone. The author actually started to sympathize with those he was going after.
He was an ATF agent who went undercover with the mongol biker gang. A major turning point in his life was when his aunt died (who was like a mom to him) and nobody at the ATF gave a damn but all the bikers he was supposed to be gathering info on were crying with him and hugging him when they found out. It made him feel really empty inside and confused.
At the end of the book he was somewhat bothered by some of the people he put away like his friend who stole motorcycles, but his friend was still victimizing people by stealing.
Or perhaps they mask their own ends by serving the greater good. I’m not going off on cops here, I have family and friends who are police officers. My best friend went through a battery of psych tests before he was accepted and he tells me stories of some old school guys who would never be accepted today.
So…some of the sick twisted stuff organized crime does (murder, torture, ruining businesses, lives, etc.) is better than betraying them in order to bring justice?
Your definition of “the worst of sins” is bizarre.
But what’s even more bizarre is this post:
So…? You’re glad there are people doing what you call the worst of sins? How nice that there are people willing to do the worst of sins. Nice.
You think they need to be watched? Wouldn’t the people watching those committing the worst of sins also have to be subhuman? Who is going to watch them?
You’re taking us down some strange avenues of observation here, amigo!
Yes, how many? :dubious:
That’s what I’m getting at. I don’t condone theft but someone who can do what that guy did without it bothering him, is clearly lacking something that makes us human. Few of us would have any problem ratting out the local crack dealer, when that person is good friend it’s a different story. That’s how life is. When we are able to befriend people, pretend to like or love them, then betray them, well…it’s like the hangman. We may need you but you aren’t coming over for dinner.
I’m apologize for the rant comment earlier. Its just that you used some loaded words in the OP (psychopath) and I took offense, as my father was an undercover police officer for about 7 years and nobody wants to think of their dad has some kind of psycho.
But I kind of see what you’re getting act. Some people are obviously more adept at it for whatever reason(their pathology, as you said) and some people adapt as they go along. I don’t think any police officer goes in with intention of getting as close emotionally to their targets as sometimes winds up happening. But once it happens, I think they understand that they are required to lie and betray to get the job done. It might be their personality or it might just come as a result of their job forcing them to turn into something they weren’t. See for example, the Stanford Prison experiment. The students were expected to act like prison guards and they did, with unexpected results. The undercover officer is expected to betray his friends and he does. It doesn’t make him a bad person, just like the students weren’t bad people. Its just the situation that made him act that way.
You folks are going to have to elaborate on the “pathological” arguements. I don’t think you need to be a psychopath to infiltrate a criminal organization in order to gather evidence of wrong doing even if you have to lie.
Again, how many people did Donny Brasco murder? If you’re prepared to compare him to Sammy ‘da Bull’ Gravano I’d like to see your basis.
Marc
I don’t understand. Undercover cops go through incredible risk and difficulty for little more than a paycheck that’s a fraction of the tax-free loot the criminals they pursue make. It’s extremely taxing on their psyche and their marriages, as Joe Pistone’s case makes clear. If they are found out they will be killed in a horrific and brutal fashion, particularly if they are operating outside the U.S. (There was a famous case of a D.E.A. agent who was betrayed by Mexican Feds and tortured to death by the drug cartel he was investigating. Unfortunately the name escapes me at the moment.) It’s one of the most dangerous and difficult law enforcement jobs out there.
Psychopaths lie for money, sex, or power. They prey on the weak and innocent. I don’t see how you can possibly compare them to undercover police.
Dante reserved one of the lowest spots in Hell for people who betray their friends. In principle, it’s a terrible thing to do. But when we’re talking about criminals, I don’t think it gets judged by the same standard. If more criminals (even if they’re ‘otherwise’ good people) were betrayed to the police by their confidants, lives would be saved.
Let’s say your s/o was one of the best undercover cops. You suspected your s/o of having an affair and confronted him/her. They looked you in the eye and said “baby you know it’s not true, I love you and only you”. Are you going to feel assured?
If your job is to lie to people to gain their trust, and you’re good at it, then you bear watching.
Enrique “Kiki” Camarena
So why do they do it then? That’s all I’m asking. It’s not an anti cop rant. There has to be some motivation, and while some may be motivated by altruistic concerns I just wonder if there isn’t something a little more malevolent in some of the personalities, that some of the best ones couldn’t have just as easily gone to the dark side if circumstances were different.