Are US prostitutes mainly "sex trafficking" victims or not?

[polar_bear]

@even_sven

Please check out Rubmap and then tell us if it’s rare for massage parlors to be prostitution fronts.

The problem with debt bondage is that it is not legal in our country. If you want to change that, change that. But until then, every worker on our soil is legally entitled to the rights and protections that our country fought long and hard for. And when those labor violations can easily be “getting raped” rather than “being forced to work extra hours in the laundry”, then yeah, the stakes are higher.

I’m open to legalizing prostitution. I’m not open to overlooking gross labor violations the occasional rape just because you don’t think their work should be illegal.

That doesn’t take away the fact that trafficking numbers now “seem” inflated for a lot of people. Everyone in this situation(described in your post) is considered to be a victim of trafficking, regardless of the opinion of the person in question. In the UN definition it is explicitly stated that when it comes to “sexual exploitation” it is irrelevant what the “victim” things of the whole thing.

This leads to the situation where many official victims don’t feel like a victim and want to be left alone, which in turn makes it more difficult to help people that want help. In real life there are grey areas as well.

It’s not that easy to have the definition changed btw, so discussing them and how that influences figures and claims in the media is kind of relevant.

[Gerald_II]

@astro

Even street walkers at the bottom of the food chain were mainly free lancing.

In California, free lancing and non-free lancing street walkers, as well as pimps, usually have to pay protection money “or taxes” to the local street gangs.

@Habeed

I just don’t see it. Something like trafficking is both super illegal and can’t make enough money. I could see it happening in foreign countries with a weak police force, but in a country with one of the most vigorous police forces in the world?

I don’t see why it couldn’t happen here? We have a high level of crime and corruption in the US. Why is human trafficking occurring here so hard to believe?

Frankly, I’ve always assumed that “sex trafficking” is a codeword for police departments to inflame the public when they do a bust on the town’s favorite hookers. I suspect that when they do “sex trafficking” investigations, they find lots of women, and some gay men, selling their bodies for cash and not really any trafficking victims…

I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard about a bust on a particular prostitute. Almost always it’s either busts on Asian massage parlors/brothels.

@Diceman

Yeah, there’s a lot of glamorization of pimps & pimping, particularly in the African-American community. Trying to redefine them as “sex traffickers” is probably entirely appropriate and necessary.

Agree with the last sentence but the first part I disagree. Glamorization of pimps and pimping does not happen in the African-American community. It’s more a part of rap culture. I don’t see any prominent black men or women promoting pimping or associating with pimps, but I do see mainstream rap artists promote it and associate with them, even admitting to partaking in the pimp game.

@Evil_Captor

1. How do you know there are lots of Asian prostitutes in the Bay Area? Is it a matter of public record, have you met them personally, etc.? And how do we know they don’t speak English?
2. How much is 'lots"? In England there was
3. Is it possible that these women came to the Bay Area of their own accord in order to engage in prostitution?
4. Is it possible that they came to the Bay Area for other kinds of jobs, found few or none for unskilled workers who can’t speak English, and turned to prostitution to support themselves?

1. local paper as well as backpage has many, many ads for brothels. You could tell before because they used to have “unblock your number” or they would publish the number with a *82. Now it’s common knowledge apparently that you have to unblock your number so the ads don’t say that anymore. They are so popular that they are referred to as AAMP or AMP (Apartment Asian Massage Parlors and Asian Massage Parlors).
2. same as above
3. That’s a good point. It is possible.
4. That’s possible to, but usually you have to figure out, how did they get here with little to no money and no English speaking skills? If it’s done in a not-quite legal/outright illegal fashion they have to pay back the money it cost to arrive here.

@Shakes

I can sling a dead cat in my neighborhood and hit an Asian massage parlor. And I live right smack in the middle of Whitey McWhitey town.

Heck, just the other day I went to my favorite Gyro shop for lunch. The place was so busy, I had to park around the corner of the shopping strip. When I did, I discovered yet another Asian massage parlor.

That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s prostitution going on there. Many of those places could be legit. But some do offer “extras,” or even specialize in it.

@suranyi

It’s not a matter of news reports. There are dozens and dozens of ads for Asian prostitutes on the Internet in my neighborhood, many specifically say things like “freshly arrived to America”. There are Asian massage parlors all over town. Everyone knows they are fronts for prostitution.

You can pretty much tell just by the ads.

[Grrr]

@Gerald_II

That doesn’t necessarily mean there’s prostitution going on there. Many of those places could be legit. But some do offer “extras,” or even specialize in it.

Well, when their adverts have young Asian women in them wearing lingerie, and then says “Cash Only”, I think it’s a pretty safe bet they’re not legit.

[Gerald_II]

@Shakes

Well, when their adverts have young Asian women in them wearing lingerie, and then says “Cash Only”, I think it’s a pretty safe bet they’re not legit.

Oh, you’ve seen the ads for these same massage parlors? I thought you meant you just saw a massage parlor and assume it’s a front.

I’m curious to know, if these immigrant women who don’t speak English but are choosing to work in these brothels fronting as massage parlors or apartment massage parlors, what happens if they don’t want to have sex with a particular client? Or they don’t want to perform a certain act? What are their rights regarding mistreatment by their employer? Regular legit business have been known to exploit their employees so couldn’t that be happening here too?

[even_sven]

@polar_bear

That doesn’t take away the fact that trafficking numbers now “seem” inflated for a lot of people. Everyone in this situation(described in your post) is considered to be a victim of trafficking, regardless of the opinion of the person in question. In the UN definition it is explicitly stated that when it comes to “sexual exploitation” it is irrelevant what the “victim” things of the whole thing.

This leads to the situation where many official victims don’t feel like a victim and want to be left alone, which in turn makes it more difficult to help people that want help. In real life there are grey areas as well.

It’s not that easy to have the definition changed btw, so discussing them and how that influences figures and claims in the media is kind of relevant.

If my boss is paying me $1.50 an hour, I may not feel like a victim, but it’s still a violation of labor law. At the very least, it creates unfair competition for other vendors who choose to follow the law.

We have labor laws in this country that provide workers with specific rights and protections. Running a business that does not comply with those laws is in violation of the law and subject to legal repercussions.

Are you arguing that sex work should be uniquely exempt from labor laws?

[astro]

nm

[Evil_Captor]

@even_sven

Please check out Rubmap and then tell us if it’s rare for massage parlors to be prostitution fronts.

I don’t have numbers for massage parlors. But even if there are massage parlors that have prostitutes, you still have not demonstrated that the women who work there are working there involuntarily. Voluntarily engaging in prostitution is not the same thing as being enslaved.

The problem with debt bondage is that it is not legal in our country. If you want to change that, change that. But until then, every worker on our soil is legally entitled to the rights and protections that our country fought long and hard for.

Sure, we can and should enforce laws against debt bondage. I’ve no problem with that. I just don’t know that it’s been established that most Asian massage parlor workers are in debt bondage. Because of all the antics that sex trafficking activitists engage in with their facts and figures, I am EXTREMELY leery of unsupported testimony, and also very leery of whatever surveys and results they come up with. They lie like rugs. Constantly. Nicholas Kristof. Melissa Farley. Somaly Mam. Liars all.

And when those labor violations can easily be “getting raped” rather than “being forced to work extra hours in the laundry”, then yeah, the stakes are higher.

If you have voluntarily accepted a position in a massage parlor knowing that you are going to be having sex with customers, it’s not really rape, is it? Now we may not consider debt bondage valid in the US, but apparently it works in Asia. It’s probably considered a bad deal but definitely an option for getting out of their local poverty.

I’m open to legalizing prostitution. I’m not open to overlooking gross labor violations the occasional rape just because you don’t think their work should be illegal.

I’m for legalizing prostitution, because it would make the world safer for prostitutes. I’m OK with going after the people who attempt to enforce debt bondage in the US. I just think we don’t need to characterize all prostitution as sex slavery to do it.