Are we evolving ourselves into extinction?

Please no moralizing just objective observations.

I think Darwin’s theory of evolution and survival of the fittest is generally accepted.

In ancient times, and still today perhaps in some corners of the world, the old were left behind. A broken leg was a death sentence as no other members of the tribe had time to hunt for you, same with your eyesight if you could not see for yourself who would help you? and retards were thought to be possessed and outcast.

But now with modern science we can repair broken bones, we have glasses to correct sight. We can transplant hearts and fix almost any weakness in the human body. We sanitize everything, some of us are so protected from natural germs, that would build up our immunity, that it’s like living in a sterile bubble.

Are we are going against the order of natural selection by artificial means by encouraging the weak genes to propagate instead of being discarded by nature? Soon it would seem that we could not survive without serialized food bottled water and constant extensive medical care.

There are countless people walking around today with titanium bone replacements, artificial heart valves, replacement organs and other artificial aids to keep them alive and able to pass on their weak genes to the next generation.

As an example it seems more and more people including children are needing spectacles. Thinking back many years it seems there were few spectacles wearers, they always had those round “piggy eye” glasses and made a big show of getting them out and putting them on when needed. The few kids at school who had glasses would get teased mercilessly about them.

Now days spectacle wearers are prolific. Even a good percentage of kids need them now. Is this because the original spectacle wearers passed on their weak genes to their kids?

Are we going to evolve into giant brains living in some sterilized liquid as depicted in science fiction?

Most of those people are at an age where they’ve either already had children or never will. Natural selection only operates on people who are still going to (try to) produce more offspring.

We may sterilize a lot of things, but we also take vaccines. Our immune systems are far from inactive.

I don’t know how much of a role genes play in vision problems. I’ve heard tell of vision problems skyrocketing in Inuit communities a generation after everyone there started watching television and reading books for hours on end; if this is true, then lifestyle is probably plays a much bigger role than genes do in causing vision problems.

Also, it’s not as though alleles for frailties will spread like wildfire through our population. An allele for weaker bones may not be a death sentence the way it used to be, but it can still interfere with an individual’s reproductive success (e.g. weak bones —> avoid sports —> wind up out of shape —> greater difficulty seducing the opposite sex). Even if it doesn’t hinder one at all, there’s not likely to be a benefit to having the weak bones allele; such alleles would only spread through genetic drift.

In other words, I’m not worried about the gene pool.

We’re actually evolving far more rapidly than we recently thought.

However, I don’t know if we are evolving towards any particular survival goal, or what exactly.

The traits it requires to survive and thrive are not the same ones we had in the wild. So someone who needs glasses and who has good fluid intelligence and social skills will fare better than a superb athlete with 20/20 vision who is socially and cognitively clueless.

Darwin did not say survival of the fittest, in terms of physical fitness

  • what he meant was survival of those most fitted to survive

In other words an asthmatic giraffe with a long neck has a major advantage against shortass giraffes if the foliage is within his reach, but not theirs.

Personally I am pretty sure that the only reason that I am here is that my grandfather was not conscripted in WWII due to a TB scar on his lung.

Interestingly what we consider disabilities can prove advantages, consider the nerd who becomes spectacularly successful, runs through a series of wives and breeds like a rabbit.

OK let’s say you buy into “survival of the fittest.” Fine, but what of it? The fittest are still surviving but the “less so fit,” are also surviving right along with them

The “unfit” aren’t taking anything away from the “fit,” they are just adding to it.

There are lot if things to cover here.

But first up, think about the time-span you are talking about. From little more than coloured water and a tincture of opium, to now is about a hundred years of medical history. Three generations maybe. Coming into a fourth. This is not enough time for any meaningful Darwinian selection to cause any sort of shift in the nature of the human. The vast majority of miracle medical science is only about a generation old. Heart transplants (indeed most transplants) are very modern things.

Next, you need to split the impact of medical advances that aid longevity into those that aid longevity before and after reproductive age. Anything that helps you live longer after you have past reproductive age does not affect the gene pool. Even now, in most modern countries, most people reach their childbearing age with essentially no major medical issues.

However it is worth standing back and asking why this might be so. Clearly infant mortality, and general mortality is vastly less than it once was. The single biggest change in modern technological times to change the life expectancy was not medical. It was sanitation. Sewerage systems and clean water account for the vast bulk of the change. You might have to argue that sanitation is weakening the species.

Probably the next change is medical. Immunisation against many killer bugs. Smallpox is a special and extraordinary example. These two get us to the start of the 1940’s. My parents grew up in an era of no antibiotics. There were the sulphas, and the like. But TB was a killer, and sepsis a major issue too. Both of my parents survived major childhood illnesses that would probably have been cured in a couple of days with antibiotics. Other kids didn’t survive them. But that was two generations ago only.

For the human race to become weaker you need to posit a genetic mechanism that might cause this to become true. Simple random genetic mutation is a very slow thing. It does not throw up huge numbers of weak children each generation.

Weak genes is a very loaded term. What you often have are genes that may lead to a trait that is less suited to the environment the owner finds themselves in. So for that time and place the owner may find themselves under pressure, and less likely to pass those genes on. But those same traits might aid the owner in a different environment. We see some of that in the variation across some races. Peoples who are better suited to the cold, to deserts, and peoples who carry traits that confer some resistance to local disease. Those traits may be exactly the wrong thing in another environment. An Inuit is probably not going to survive as well in the Australian desert as a local. Sickle cell anaemia isn’t a nice condition, but if you live in the malarial equatorial belts, it might be that those genes are what keep you alive.

So, are there real issues? Probably. There is a significant ethical question about people with known genetic disease. Of which there is an ever increasing list. These are conditions that already exist in the populace, and which can become more widespread if those afflicted do reproduce. A good example is Vitamin C. Most animals don’t get scurvy, and don’t need to eat food containing vitamin C. They are able to manufacture it themselves. But we can’t. We have the gene to do so, however it is damaged, and doesn’t work. The likely answer is that at some point an ancestor of the race did receive a random mutation of the gene. Something that would ordinarily have consigned them to an early grave. However they were living in an area and a time in the planet’s history, with abundant fruit, or other sources of Vitamin C, and mutation never caused any harm. And they passed the mutation on. Over many many generations the mutation spread across the species (remember if you go back enough generations we all share pretty much the same pool of ancestors) and eventually everyone got the mutation. Mostly it never causes much of a problem. Unless you are going to spend six months on a sailing ship. But this is an example of where a particular genetic mutation would be well defined as weakening the species.

So, as we progress medically, we are seeing more and more people with debilitating and major issues due to genetic defects survive, and lead some level of normal life. Cystic Fibrosis would be a good example. Appalling condition, usually consigning the sufferer to a death in their teens. But with extended care, new drugs, and better general understanding the prognosis can be better. Or consider haemophilia. Possibly a very interesting example. But many many more.

The risk of better medical care may be that these conditions may manage to pass into later generations, and may, like the Vitamin C mutation, eventually (and this takes hundreds of generations) spread across the species. The answer is probably that it could happen, but is pretty unlikely. It isn’t something that happens in a decade or two (after all the sufferer will have only had time to have one generation of offspring).

Which leads us to the slightly more contentious issue. Often termed genetic counselling. If you know that you yourself have an inheritable condition, or carry a recessive gene for one, what should you do as a potential parent? It is unlikely that a Cystic Fibrosis patient would ever consider consigning a child to the same fate. But haemophiliacs? Carriers of the gene? The answers here are not easy.

I’d agree with you.

How do you explain the archeological evidence of elders with overwhelming injuries that lived for years [or at least long enough for healing to have progressed long enough to be detected such as trephined skulls] if they were abandoned and disposed of?

My favorite example is l’Ancien

Re: Idiocracy: Or The Marching Morons by Cyril Kornbluth. I always had a soft spot for Kornbluth, he wrote some lovely stories. And never forget Galápagos by Kurt Vonnegut. Same feelings about Vonnegut too.

Actually, there’s the argument that we are already probably seriously genetically weakened, and have been for many thousands of years due to simply being intelligent. Over enough time, unused or underused qualities tend to decay due to genetic drift ( like cave fish losing their eyes ), and intelligence and tool use is a huge crutch. No one is going to die so humans can keep extra cold tolerance if they can make fur coats instead. Every time some hunter twenty thousand years ago caught an animal to feed his family by cleverness instead of strength or his senses, he diminished the evolutionary pressure for such things in favor of brainpower.

And from a practical perspective, either we will shortly reach the point where we can edit out genetic defects and then improve on nature; or society will collapse and any effects of modern technology on our genes will vanish along with the technology.

Cystic fibrosis and hemophilia will always be with us, though - they are recessive genetic diseases and cause no problems for those with only one copy of the gene. (There is one variant of hemophilia which is not completely recessive in this respect, those with one copy of the gene will show some symptoms.)

Generally for CF there is a 25% chance of an offspring not having the mutant gene, a 50% chance they are an asymptomatic carrier, and a 25% chance of having the disease.

For hemophilia, since it’s X-linked, a daughter would need to have a hemophiliac father and a carrier mother to have a 50% chance of being hemophiliac and 50% of being a carrier. If both parents are hemophiliac, she would be one as well, while if only one parent had one gene for it (hemophiliac father or carrier mother), she would have a 50% chance of being a carrier. A son would be hemophiliac 50% of the time with a carrier mother.

So really, the genetic issues created by hemophiliacs or people with cystic fibrosis surviving to the age of reproduction are relatively minor in comparison to what the carriers will do. Those people may grow up never knowing they carry this illness, and experiencing no problems.

I OTOH and here because apparently my grandfather was a freakin Jap killin’ badass in the during WWII.

But probably also in no small part due to my father having the intelligence to work for General Electric instead of General Westmoreland.
:smiley:

Clearly you have never been in a New York subway or the Port Authority Bus Terminal.

Theoretically. But professional success is not the same as reproductive success. In fact, the two are often contradictory. And it is reproductive success that counts in matters of genetics.

I suspect it wasn’t quite as bad as that - prehistoric, as in Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal, skeletons have been found with healed injuries that were severe enough that the injured person would have needed careful nursing through weeks or even months of recovery, even long healed injuries that left the people crippled for life yet they clearly lived years past that injury. So I suspect folks were helping injured/crippled relatives when they could. After all, a near-sighted guy with a bad leg just might have been the tribes best flint-knapper and thus worth the trouble of keeping alive, right?

Also, people don’t need perfect eyesight to survive, just “good enough” eyesight. The deer you’re shooting at doesn’t have to be in sharp focus, you just have to see it well enough for a solid hit. The current eyesight standard is rather arbitrary on a certain level, that’s why we don’t require drivers to have 20/20 eyesight, 20/40 is good enough in most US jurisdictions.

OK, natural selection basically comes down to who leaves the most descendants in a given environment. It’s NOT who is an Olympic athlete or who has the best immune system, it’s who has the most grandkids (Just having your own kids isn’t enough, your offspring must also have offspring for you to be a “winner” in Darwinian terms). We don’t live in an environment that requires us to be hunters or fight off infections without assistance, so we aren’t being “selected” for that. We are, though, still evolving. Some traits that might be currently advantageous are resistance to cancer and heart disease despite a fatty diet (even after your reproductive years are over, if you can still contribute to raising your descendants you are improving your fitness by increasing your progeny, so genes for longevity are important to some degree). Resistance to chemical injury. Tolerance for an artificial day/night cycle. That sort of thing. That’s still evolution, and still traits that can confer an advantage even if the traits aren’t visible to the eye. It’s not about looks, it’s about leaving offspring of offspring behind when you’re gone.

But if the technology is around then tolerance for implantation of foreign items becomes an advantage, doesn’t it? And keep in mind, some of those replacements may be due to things like car accidents or cigarette smoking that our prehistoric ancestors never had to deal with and thus would not be adapted to cope with.

That’s in part because in the old days if the kid’s vision was, say, 20/60 no one thought he needed glasses (at least, not until he started driving) because such vision was good enough for daily life. Thus, only those who really couldn’t function without corrective lenses ever bothered with them. Nowadays everyone is supposed to be 20/20, so even a kid with 20/25 vision might well be wearing glasses. So partly it’s an artifact of better diagnosis of a problem that didn’t used to be seen as a problem.

The point is that you don’t get to decide the fittest, your possible descendants do. Picture a representative member of H. Erectus deciding on the fittest members of his tribe. Would H. Sapiens have been the ultimate result of that, or would it have been simply H. Erectus, only more so? By definition those members of society that reproduce are more fit, it has nothing to do with your definition of fitness. If myopic adenoidal soft-boned people can reproduce more effectively than those with what you would consider perfect health, your premise is flawed.

ell, if I may make a few small points:

  1. How on earth can you evolve out the breaking of bones?

  2. The idea that we “Sanitize everything” is just nuts. All that hand sanitizer you see around is mostly useful for delivering money to the companies that make hand sanitizer. The total dent we’re making in the world’s population of microorganisms is statistically equivalent to trying to wipe out the human race by punching one person in the face.

We have some success in very, very intense and specific sterlization efforts, like keeping surgical rooms clean. Other than that, we’re just moving bacteria around or getting rid of a few for a few minutes and that’s about it.

  1. Human behaviour cannot be separated from evolution. The way we take care of each other is a part of what our species is, and is a big part of our success.

The brain that enables us to discover new drugs and invent new medical treatments is part of our ongoing evolutionary history. It’s not like some benevolent external entity is artificially enhancing our lives and bypassing natural selection; it’s that very selection that has produced the intelligence that’s now enabling more people to survive.

And it’s not as if humanity were divided into strong survivors and weak survivors, and the strong were artificially helping out the weak. We are all in the same gene pool, and the people who are now able to survive longer may have specific qualities that would otherwise be lost.

In the long run, is Stephen Hawking benefiting our species, or should we have let him die? Were Christopher Reeve’s additional years a net gain or a net loss?

I’m not sure this standard reasoning is entirely correct. As a group, children with living grandparents must’ve been much better off than ones without them, for most of human history. Even today, grandparents are a great boon to a growing child in many ways. Living past reproductive age does affect the gene pool in helping the offspring fare better (ie. produce more viable offspring), no?

True, and it is generally accepted that this is a real effect. I was being, perhaps, a little strong. Just how importnat t is is had to judge, but real it is.

Some of the comments above do begin to point to another deeper issue. Just what do we mean by human race? Traditionally we think of the species as little more than its genetic makeup, and look towards the evolutionaly forces that are shaped by, and shape those genes. But the human race is a very social one, and we are defined as a species, and even as individuals, by the society we have. The information content of our society probably easily exceeds the information content of our genes. We are not humans in a vacuum.

It might have in the old days, when the experience of the earlier generations had to be passed down verbally. Now, when you don’t need the old man telling you that the caribou always return when the oak leaves are as big as a squirrel’s ear, what benefit do you derive from long lived parents? In fact, dying soon after your children reach sexual maturity and leaving them their inheritance early might convince a family just starting out to reproduce earlier than otherwise if they were concerned about careers, and to have more children than they might if finances were less stable.

Or you are double income family, unbelievable mortgage, and you need your retired parents to mind the kinds whilst you go out to work. Of course, had they died already and left you a nice inheritance, you could afford a nanny. :smiley: But this way you get the childcare for free and still get the inheritance. Of course you will be so worn out that all you will be able to do is leave it to your kids anyway.

But in societies where there isn’t much inherited wealth the effect is less. The converse also plays a part. In societies where the kids are expected to support and look after the aged parents their longevity might be a drain on your ability to procreate. But if you realise that the only care your parents get is what you provide, you will soon understand that having lots of kids of your own is your own personal superannuation policy.

I suspect that there are a number of stable patterns.