Are We Fallen Angels? again

In the Diablo series humanity wasn’t created by god at all, but was instead an accident born from the affair between a demon and angel, which is why neither heaven or hell likes us very much. I think that could explain some things.

If the Bible did not directly address the origin of humanity, it would be reasonable to look “between the lines” for the explanation. But given that it does address the origins of humanity, and that the “on the line” explanation conflicts with the “between the lines” one, it seems backwards to prefer the indirect interpretation.

The OP kind of reminds me of Steven Brust’s To Reign In Hell, where humans are the fourth and least powerful generation of angels. Not quite fallen angels as such, but created (along with Earth) during the climax of the war between Yahweh and Satan.

Of course, the notion of Satan rebelling against God, and of a war between fallen angels and God, is found nowhere in the Bible.

As has been said, you don’t have to read between the lines of the Bible to find out what the Bible says about human origins. It’s all right there in black and white.

Or, if you prefer the contradictory version presented in Genesis 2:

Serious question: isn’t the War in Heaven and the fall of Lucifer originally from Paradise Lost? Or did Milton take it from an earlier source?

My answer to the OP is essentially the same as Diogenes, but from the perspective of a believer: you cannot reconcile the idea that humans are fallen angels with the Biblical record.

And aren’t there some sources that suggest that Lucifer rebelled precisely because he objected to God’s decision to create human beings? Or am I remembering that solely from the Silmarillion?

IIRC (and Dio would know best), it’s in Revelations about a War in Heaven between the Angels on the side of God and those on the side of the Dragon, and that the Dragon and his followers lost and were cast out. The trouble is, Revelations was basically a religious text written by someone on a serious acid trip (or, more generously, it’s entirely symbolic…much of it, again IIRC, actually had to do with the early church and Rome, with Rome, since the early Christians didn’t want to come right out and condemn Rome as evil or whatever).

-XT

It’s from Milton, yes. He sort of took from this passage in revelation:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 12:8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
(Rev. 12:7-9)
But that is a description of what will happen at the end of the world, not something has happened yet. Milton took the passage and moved it to the beginning of time rather than the end.

Life of Adam and Eve (also called the Apocalypse of Moses) has Satan telling Eve that he was cast out of heaven for refusing to bow to humans. Milton has a similar them, though I don’t know if that was his source. I believe that the Book of Mormon also contains some version of that story, though I’m not positive about that.

Come on XT, everybody knows that L.A. is, in fact, on the Earth.

There are many theistic interpretations of where we come from, and the Abrahamic monotheistic ones you are discussing (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) are just one of many. So another question is why would the beliefs of Abrahamic monotheism be any more valid than any of the other spiritual and theistic descriptions of life. Certain sects of christianity have different interpretations of Lucifer and the meaning of life. Christianity is a branch of Abrahamic monotheism. Abrahamic monotheism is a branch of monotheism. Monotheism is a branch of Theism, and theism is one of many religious POVs on spirituality and theology (animism, totemism, whatever else I can dig up on wikipedia, etc). So what makes this particular branch special other than it is the branch that is endorsed by this particular culture?

From an evolutionary POV, we aren’t fallen angels as much as we are risen monkeys. We are primates who are better at culture, language, cooperation, compassion, cognition, tool making, etc. than our evolutionary cousins.

As an example, humans can feel compassion across species lines (compassion for a bird, as an example), something most other animals cannot do. In that sense we are risen above other animals.

Personally, I think of myself as a risen demon, but to each their own.

I’m curious how much of the OP’s idea is derived from second- and third-hand readings of Paradise Lost, myself.

The Silmarillion? How?

Haven’t there been examples of other great apes who (attempt to) care for pets?

This is how I see it.
There are some fallen angels, sometimes called demons, out there, as well as ‘regular’ or ‘Holy’ angels out there, and ‘people’ who are the children of angels (both good and bad), and hybrids called nephelum <sp>. We are all mixed together, put into common bodies so we can’t see who each person really is, and then God pressed play. This is also the concept of a old soul (angel/demon) or young soul (child).

Angels are just another step in our spiritual evolution, so if your not a angel yet, in time you will be, and those angels now will further evolve (arch-angels). This process goes on.

This place we call earth allows a refinement, letting the good separate from the bad. This is a rather mild form of Hell. For the children it is very tough, for the demons it’s almost a vacation spot.

One day that will end as the children will come out and only the demons will be left, which God also wishes to save. That’s the lake of fire, where demons who lived a luxurious life on earth will now be at the bottom, cry out for help and be saved.

The process of intermixing angels and children with the likes of Lucifer was so God can save His child Lucifer, along with all His other children. God did this so that none would be lost, but all will be saved.

Actually, Jesus is pretty explicit in the gospels that he uses parables to obscure, not illustrate, his point, so that only the righteous will receive his teachings.

And your source for this obviously non-biblical based story is…?

As a Catholic, I know most of these stories from the Bible. As some have said already, it could be taken metaphorically as anything, but I think within the strict, creationist, narrow interpretation of the bible, Lucifer is cast down and becomes Satan, and all the angels who fell with him are later turned into the demons.

However, if you want to take the interpretation as we humans are fallen angels, it will add credence to the thought that humans are in themselves divine, rather than some divine creator far above us all. Depends how you want to view it.